What Would It Cost To Get A Voucher Specimen

[Explorer]

The database I will love to mine is the one for all expeditions that BFRO has led all over the country.

 

What happens in these expeditions is usually not written up to the public (even for paying participants, I have not seen write-ups) and locations are always secret.

Yet, they probably have led hundreds of trips into supposedly hot spots.

 

I will love to see what diverse strategies they have used, what techniques/tools worked and which ones were fruitless.

What % of these expeditions get a visual and if there are any common factors among these cases.

 

I know that some expeditions have yielded visual sightings (I was in 2 of those, but I was not the eyewitness), and in both cases the BF came to the witness and not the other way around.

My conclusion (based on going out in 5 BFRO expeditions) is that hiking at night with NV or Thermals is a fruitless strategy.

The best strategy is to stay in camp (after hiking all day long around the target area, which presumable already has been deemed highly likely for BF presence).

In the two visual cases mentioned above, one came out due to curiosity but the other one came out because the camper was blocking a game trail going down to some huge berry bushes.

However, in neither case the eyewitness intention was to film or shoot the creature.

 

I have yet to hear of a successful BFRO trip whereas they were able to film an unambiguous BF creature in video or thermal by tricking it, fooling it, or making it very curious to come into the clear.

I have seen thermal video clips of something hiding behind trees or bushes, but the creature was always hiding or tying to avoid being seen fully.

Only in the Brown thermal video from Florida, do we see a full body walking.  But I don't think they fooled or tricked that BF, they were at the right place and time and got the lucky shot.

 

I do have hopes that somebody will figure it out and fool/trick the BF.

The alternative is the law of large numbers; going out to field numerous times until they make a mistake and you got them.

 

[BobbyO]

Good post B and i agree, these things are wary.

 

Just 32 actual visual reports from WA State in the last 25 years from people Camping, Hiking, Hunting and Fishing, people who plonk themselves in Sasquatch habitat.

 

Double that (64) from people driving in that same time frame, completely chance encounters.

 

 

[Trogluddite]

12 hours ago, BobbyO said:

Very interesting to see that only 2/39 reports (5%) from Campers in the South Cascades Geographical Zone in WA State have been Actual Visual Sighting Reports, with both of those reports coming just days apart in the same general area in 1995.

 

Across the North American Continent this number sits at 139/564 (24.6%).

 

That number drops to 68/392 (16%) from reports from the last 25 years however.

Looking at the northeast:

 

60 encounters while people were camping in some way, shape, or form (i.e., cabins, tents, lean-tos) yield only 20 actual sightings. How nice of Bigfoot to work in easily-rounded numbers.  These 60 encounters while camping are out of 895 encounters overall.

 

 

12 hours ago, norseman said:

What are the other 95% of reports? Audio? Tracks? Activity associated with them like rock throwing?

 

Unfortunately, the rest are people who heard or smelled things while camping and didn't care to go out in the middle of the night to discover what was shaking the ground around their tent. 

[norseman]

Doh!!!!

 

I hate that when that happens!

 

I love my mules TOO MUCH to leave them out there tied to the high line while some love sick Mugwamp is on the loose! 

 

Besides......if you stay inside your tent? Your just a giant nylon wrapped burrito with a meaty chewy center!!! ( your the meaty. chewy. center.) Just ask Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend.......just kiddin.....you can't ask him or her anything.....because they went out the south end of a hungry north bound freakin brown bear. Don't pet the bears gol dang it!!!

 

[BobbyO]

13 hours ago, Explorer said:

 

 

I know that some expeditions have yielded visual sightings (I was in 2 of those, but I was not the eyewitness), and in both cases the BF came to the witness and not the other way around.

My conclusion (based on going out in 5 BFRO expeditions) is that hiking at night with NV or Thermals is a fruitless strategy.

The best strategy is to stay in camp (after hiking all day long around the target area, which presumable already has been deemed highly likely for BF presence).

 

That's no coincidence I don't think, this appears to be the same general trend across the board.

 

13 hours ago, Explorer said:

In the two visual cases mentioned above, one came out due to curiosity but the other one came out because the camper was blocking a game trail going down to some huge berry bushes.

However, in neither case the eyewitness intention was to film or shoot the creature.

 

I have yet to hear of a successful BFRO trip whereas they were able to film an unambiguous BF creature in video or thermal by tricking it, fooling it, or making it very curious to come into the clear.

I have seen thermal video clips of something hiding behind trees or bushes, but the creature was always hiding or tying to avoid being seen fully.

Only in the Brown thermal video from Florida, do we see a full body walking.  But I don't think they fooled or tricked that BF, they were at the right place and time and got the lucky shot.

 

 

 

Wasnt that Brown footage literally just one step ?

 

Ive asked Bart some questions that are relevant to what we are talking about, he'll reply when he gets his family bits done over the weekend.

[Explorer]

10 hours ago, BobbyO said:

 

Wasnt that Brown footage literally just one step ?

 

 

Yes,  the Stacy Brown footage was only one step (I had to see the clip again to refresh my memory, see attached).

What I liked about that video, is that you  can see the whole body (head, arms, legs) moving as a human for a few seconds.

It was hiding behind a tree before it moved; so it probably was fully aware of the guy who was using the FLIR.

Granted, I am assuming that this was a real BF captured as opposed to a hoax or a human walking back there.

Thermal imaging videos will never provide proof; but if the creature is real then we should be able to capture thermal images of it.

 

 

 

 

 

urs ago, BobbyO said:

Ive asked Bart some questions that are relevant to what we are talking about, he'll reply when he gets his family bits done over the weekend.

 

 

I look forward to hearing from Bart.

Have not heard much from him in a few years.

Hope he is doing some interesting research out there.

 

 

[SWWASAS]

As far as finding BF, in my experience the most reliable evidence of BF activity in an area is footprints.     No matter what your method is to achieve BF contact you have to insert yourself in an active area.      Start with sighting data, the more recent the better.   Then insert into that area.   If they are active there and  you are lucky, you can find footprints.     Perhaps this is where a group of people sweeping an area might be useful.     Certainly a dozen sets of eyes sweeping at area is more likely to pick up a footprint than one individual searching.    That flies in the face of my solo field work but I am not exactly tripping over eager field researchers that want to go out with me.      While BF are fanatical about not being seen, and there is some evidence they attempt to avoid leaving footprints,  they seem less fanatical about that than being seen.    In the PNW chances are with the frequent rain storms,   footprint equals BF presence in the last 24 to 48 hours.      BFRO reports are ancient history compared to that.      Reports can get you to an area, then boots on the ground is needed to find footprints.     Footprint finds mean the area is hot at least till you enter it.     Footprints also tell a story.      Direction of travel,   choice of path,   how recent,   and in some cases the thought process of the BF.     An example of thought process is a couple of my finds were BF stepping on and across human trail margins to avoid stepping in and leaving prints in a muddy human trail.   That demonstrates an attempt to avoid leaving the footprints on one level or at a different level a reluctance to get muddy feet.    Both of these intentions indicate sentient behavior.    Bears don't seem to care where they step.     But a footprint find tells you where it was coming from and where it seemed to be going.    In my case the BFRO data got me in the area, the first footprint find showed recent activity,   with expanded search, I found more prints that defined a large creek drainage as an active area.     Further prints validated that and expanded the active area,   frequent visits led to an encounter,   more prints,   stuff thrown,   placement of a glyph on a stump,  getting growled at,   then zapping with another print find.    Footprint finds tied it all together, led me on a systematic search,   and in retrospect, were the biggest betrayer of BF presence.     Then perhaps more significantly for that area,   no further prints and total secession of BF activity in the nearly two years since.     Footprints in my experience were the key to finding and the signal of the end of activity in that area.        Those that insist that BF are only active at night in my estimation are missing out on the most valuable evidence of BF activity:    footprints.    They are hard enough to find in the daylight and nearly impossible to find at night.   

 

 

Edited January 22, 2017 by SWWASAS

[Celtic Raider]

On 21/01/2017 at 5:00 PM, hiflier said:

IMO That's still a lot of visual sightings. Certainly not like road stuff but it not exactly 1% either. Toss in the Class b reports which I would think includes everything from sounds of footfalls to howls to eye shine to odors and it may show a more robust figure. Still I all Class A sightings from campers does indicate what you say, shy but curious. It maintains the characteristic as the weakness we.ve been discussing here. That may show the only avenue to pursue to get one close enough to have a chance at a voucher. But there is so, so much to coordinate for success.

 

As an example, I had a dream the other night that one came into my camp with me, my spouse, and dog present. I don't own a gun but in my dream I had one and it was the RIGHT one. The creature in my dream took the position of getting on all fours and then it charged us. I took it down in two shots; the first one slowed it and the second took it down. The rest of the dream was dealing with many conundrums: a pick up truck with a cap on the back and a camp full of supplies and gear. But that was the tip of the iceberg.

 

I had to choose to leave everything, try to get a 700 lb. carcass into the back of the truck, think up how to explain the gun going off in a state park, hide blood, line the truck with plastic, find a place to get a truck-full of block and bag ice without raising suspicion, and THEN, find a place to take the body for safe keeping until I could find and convince a facility to take it without alerting any authorities. The dream wasn't a nightmare until AFTER the shooting. It just goes to show what has to be in place when actually planning something like this.....oh, and then in who knows how many hours or days, go back to the camp and gather up the gear we left.

 

I can almost see the look on my spouse's face at every stage- especially if I was to say that we are leaving everything at camp and going immediately to Idaho- from Maine! Yeah, some things just need to be worked out before embarking on such a plan because a chance encounter that ends up with a body could be a real hardship- and that's if one doesn't lose the body in the process to some agency or end up in jail or an interrogation situation.

 

I would suggest taking parts of the body, maybe the foot, a hand and the head rather than the whole thing. Log the GPS co-ordinates and cover the body with the tent material and secure it to try and dissuade other predators - you can always buy a new tent but you might not get this chance again. Take photos and video of the body and you amputating the hands/feet etc. as evidence. Contact someone like Jeff Meldrum and email him the photos - I'm sure he'll be eager to meet up and take the parts off your hands and examine the remains of the body. Have a written agreement that the good Dr can take the scientific credit (naming the species etc.) if you can take x% of the royalties to placate your better half .

 

On 21/01/2017 at 0:13 AM, hiflier said:

 

Yes time- and knowledge. But to shoot or not to shoot is a decision I am sure is not an easy one to make. The ones that balk because they look so Human is an indication that the issue is not an easy one to contend with. It would seem that for all one's intention going into the field the "moment of truth" won't be the same for everyone. I had written that for all that we learn about how these creatures operate it will take everything we have learned and mre to complete the task with the most important being what we learn about ourselves.

 

I also presented a crossroad. After bringing one down either nothing happens OR more show up. What I've never seen discussed is this: if more show up then what happens if the additional BF's simply walk over to the fallen one and lift it up to carry off- never once looking back at the one or ones that killed it? What happens then? Shoot all of them in the back just to bring in the one specimen? I think not. As important as it is to secure a body there simply HAS to be a point where it gets decided to let the matter rest. That point I think revolves around the taking of the lives of additional passive BF's who may show up but do nothing. Or as mentioned, quietly approach the one that was shot and carry it off without aggression or making eye contact. Probably would never go down like that but I had to bring it up.

 

Film the whole episode - or if you're with a partner or small group which would be sensible when hunting an unknown quantity have someone filming as you're taking the shot - and preferably documenting the expedition. Then if a number of other creatures move in and take the body away you would have some very good evidence - it should be pretty obvious if it's a real occurrence. You could also probably be able to take a blood or tissue sample depending upon the damage the bullet did. If they didn't come back immediately you could set up a couple of trail cams overlooking the body to capture and creatures that come to investigate - if you didn't already remove the body.

 

 

 

[norseman]

As hunters everywhere will tell you....

 

The work doesn't start until the animal is down.

 

But Celtic Raider offers a great solution! Plussed.

[Yuchi1]

If you were going to kill a reclusive human what would be requisite?

 

IMO, job one is to pattern it's behavior, what is predictable and what changes depending upon the circumstance?

 

What are the intersections where probability renders the best chance of success?

 

Given success, what is the recovery and extraction methodology?

 

The day after, how are you going to handle the logistics that inevitably will arise?

 

Considering that no one (publicly) has attained job one, therein lies the angst and frustration felt by groups and individuals in the past which led to disillusionment and disbandment.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Yuchi1
typo

[norseman]

The angst and frustration?

 

I ENJOY my time in the woods. And I'll continue to venture out until I'm too old and crippled to do so. Might as well pack my guide gun along just in case.

[MIB]

Plussed.  Stoopid!   Angst and frustration?   More like Brer Rabbit's line "don't throw me in the briar patch"  !!    Nowhere I'd rather be than out in the woods.  

 

MIB

[Trogluddite]

On 1/22/2017 at 0:39 AM, norseman said:

....Just ask Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend.......

 

The morbidly ironic part is that a day or two before he became a snack, he was filming a bear that he had nicknamed "Ollie" and can be heard asking on camera, "Oh, Ollie bear is angry - is Ollie bear going to eat Timmy?"  I believe that his subsequent death was attributed to the bear known as "Ollie." 

 

 

On 1/22/2017 at 1:50 PM, SWWASAS said:

As far as finding BF, in my experience the most reliable evidence of BF activity in an area is footprints.     No matter what your method is to achieve BF contact you have to insert yourself in an active area.      Start with sighting data, the more recent the better.  .....  

 

Not sure how it is out west, but in the northeast there certainly seems to be a pattern of activity in one area, followed by a lull, followed by activity in a distinct and different area.  Almost like hunter-gatherers had exhausted a food supply, left, then came back to the same general area.  Or one group moving out while another moves in, but keeping a safe distance between the groups to avoid conflict. 

 

 

3 hours ago, norseman said:

The angst and frustration?

I ENJOY my time in the woods. And I'll continue to venture out until I'm too old and crippled to do so. Might as well pack my guide gun along just in case.

 

While I haven't come even close to an encounter, this ... silliness? ... diversion? ....hobby? ... gotten me out into the woods more than I otherwise would have been, and gotten me to volunteer w/a S&R group.  Now if I can just avoid my frau pushing me down a steeper cliff the next time...

 

[norseman]

Troy wrote:

 

Now if I can just avoid my frau pushing me down a steeper cliff the next time...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

LOL!!!

[hiflier]

1 hour ago, Trogluddite said:

Not sure how it is out west, but in the northeast there certainly seems to be a pattern of activity in one area, followed by a lull, followed by activity in a distinct and different area.  Almost like hunter-gatherers had exhausted a food supply, left, then came back to the same general area.  Or one group moving out while another moves in, but keeping a safe distance between the groups to avoid conflict

 

I've noticed similar patterns and have been chasing down three things, food supply of course, mating, and generational cycles. It's a big fat nut to crack and it may be that it's one factor, which I doubt unless one something forces the movement- like fire or flood, or a combination of all three. If it is a combination of all therr then the cycle will be a lot more complex. Then too there seems to be a small group that doen't move while the majority does. That's a dynamic totally unto its self that I could only guess at.

 

Looking at decades of data across regions takes time but one thing is certain. Starting with an idea and seeing if the data supports it gets me through the data faster than sitting and trying to figure out patterns in the pile form out of thin air. Larger patterns like what you mentioned are good. Smaller ones not so much as several factors must be plugged in to see the picture. Some of those factors I mentioned like fire or flood- even logging histories, are not part of any database and I've always though that somehow they should be. Forest and wild habitat over the course of the last 60-100 years in general isn't something that is in a steady state. Finding that kind of historical information I think is critical but at the same time is difficult to find state to state.

 

I do seriously think that as far as movement of these creatures go this information is a large missing piece of the puzzle. Been saying it for some time now. Maybe once the databases are finished, or at least up to date, then slowing down then researching a region's natural events as catalysts to movement might be the next phase. The data must be somewhere either in national or state archives and only the largest events need looking at with smaller ones perhaps later. Large fires, floods, brutally cold snowy winters, and seasons of severe drought HAVE to have an impact on animal prey/predator movement along with natural things like fruits, nuts, and berries. How could it not?