What Would It Cost To Get A Voucher Specimen

[norseman]

It's an enigma wrapped in a riddle.

 

Its easy to think of a Sasquatch as some sort of bush ninja, obviously they have to be. But there must be other factors at play.

 

Babies cry, they play, they don't pay attention. Men lose their minds when swooning a mate. Women must be looked after during late stages of pregnancy and child birth. The old are senile and slow and in pain. The sick must be looked after, they cannot be moved. They cough and moan and die.......

 

They cannot always be bringing their A game.....no way.

[hiflier]

There seems to be only one solution that everything points to: Subterranean. Granted it an unromantic thought but in a rather sideways approach it may also answer the portal thing. They may just simply access openings in the Earth. Even if the population is small the traces you mention that would be the leavings and signs of a real life creature are glaringly missing. And have been missing outside the occasional sighting or set of tracks.

 

Oh great! not only are they reclusive but they live where folks have been denying that they live. Can anyone tell me there's another answer that covers as many bases that dwelling under ground does? Now you've done it Norseman!!.It solves the wildfire issues, the heat, the cold, the disappearance acts, and a multitude of other things. You know what this means don't you? Someone has to correlate BF activity with earthquake activity as they must exit to the safety of above ground when tremors hit.

 

Could put a nasty, time consuming spin on databases, eh?. 

[FarArcher]

26 minutes ago, norseman said:

 

Unfortunately we are not talking about Rambo here. I agree with everything you said assuming we are talking about one male Sasquatch in his prime.

 

But in order for a species to exist we need to not only be looking at Rambo. We need to be looking at the old, the young, the sick and the pregnant...... Are you going to be covering your tracks when you are having contractions? What about horrible arthritis? What about mating?

 

How does a extended family of 10 individuals from 6 months old to 60 years meet its daily caloric intake without a human taking notice? They are not being stealth resupplied by helo here with MRE's for all.

 

Ishi was able to avoid detection and stay alive in the California wilderness despite being hunted like an animal by settlers. But his mother and sister were not able too. Neither was his whole tribe. They were caught and killed. Ishi WAS Rambo! But in the end completely isolated from any others of his kind? His personal victory was moot.

 

So how does Sasquatch stay hidden as a family group?

 

 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't require a Rambo - if you're talking about a human being able to conceal themselves to avoid detection from other men.  My team members and I used to do so all the time - and we were being hunted by entire divisions.  Small recon teams.  It's no big deal.

 

One thing I note is that they seem to thrive in swamps, difficult mountain terrain, almost in-penetrable thickets, and altitudes.  There is a reason for that - humans don't very often go into really difficult terrain.  So if you have a pregnant BF, or an elderly BF, they'll stay close to the crib.  That's just common sense.  If they're intelligent, and I believe they are, and if they have rudimentary language - and I think the do - it's a no-brainer.

 

Those that can hunt - go afar or work with other hunters - and hunt.  Scavenge.  Gather.  It's been that way with all animals and men since who-flung-the-chunk.  Some days are better than others - some days are worse than others - but they seem to manage.  They may have knowledge and access to food sources we're not aware of - and that's why I don't get too hung up on the "caloric intake."  It's not a big deal to go for three or four days without eating - and in fact - the body works to store the occasional food, and not store food eaten with great frequency.

 

That's why dieting works much better with lots of nibbles through the day, rather than one big meal just before you retire.

 

As far as being "stealth resupplied with MRE's,"  we weren't.  That's how I know you can go for a few days without eating.  We don't need nearly as much food as we think we do.  And it's amazing at the food you can find as you're out and about - berries,  There must be 30-50 types of just berries available.  Roots - if you know what you're doing - they're edible.  Bugs.  I've eaten at least a bucket (spread over multiple times) of those white grubs when you kick over a rotten log or stump.  Squeeze them, the crap runs out, and they're good to go.

 

Every animal manages to find enough food.  Who knows?  If they're eating berries near their home - it's possible that some of those berry seeds they passed took root, and provides not only a source of food - but a natural barrier and greater concealment for their crib area.

 

How does a family stay hidden?  Primarily be being adapted to nocturnal preferences.  Combine that with taking up residence in terrains humans avoid, and then be aware of any humans that come into your area - and overall - a family can do quite well at remaining undetected.  Humans leave trails - maybe these things do like American Rangers - spread out to conceal their passing, never returning the same way they left out, stepping on roots or rocks to minimize any sign, and again - ingress and egress using thickets, thick bushes, difficult climbs, or any combination thereof.

 

It's not hard.  Only the lazy leave easily detected sign behind. 

25 minutes ago, hiflier said:

There seems to be only one solution that everything points to: Subterranean. Granted it an unromantic thought but in a rather sideways approach it may also answer the portal thing. They may just simply access openings in the Earth. Even if the population is small the traces you mention that would be the leavings and signs of a real life creature are glaringly missing. And have been missing outside the occasional sighting or set of tracks.

 

Oh great! not only are they reclusive but they live where folks have been denying that they live. Can anyone tell me there's another answer that covers as many bases that dwelling under ground does? Now you've done it Norseman!!.It solves the wildfire issues, the heat, the cold, the disappearance acts, and a multitude of other things. You know what this means don't you? Someone has to correlate BF activity with earthquake activity as they must exit to the safety of above ground when tremors hit.

 

Could put a nasty, time consuming spin on databases, eh?. 

 

 

They didn't call cave men cavemen for nothing.

 

Caves in easily approached terrain is bad - anyone can come up on you.  But if you are a really good climber - you can find all kinds of caves and overhangs with great concealment that humans won't begin to approach.

 

Cool in the Summer, warm in the winter.

 

You just don't take up residence in the obvious caves.

[hiflier]

Both of those replies added together raise the bar in a mildly disconcerting way for anyone going after these guys. But together they also remain in an accessible reality for consideration. Playing the curiosity card becomes almost a requirement then. Seems the best tactical approach for many reasons including one's safety if that is even a possibility. At least for cutting down on the ambush threat it would be helpful 

[gigantor]

I think the best explanation is that they've gone extinct or are nearly so.

 

But just to leave no stone unturned, I have looked into the cave idea and think it's a plausible one. I find it curious that there is a blackout on cave location info by most states. I challenge anyone (go to it hiflier) to come up with a source of cave locations for WV for example, or any other state. There are known caves everywhere, but none documented except for the tourist attractions and the caving clubs have been muzzled in order to not reveal cave locations. I've spent many hours researching for this info and have found none.

 

Knowing cave locations would make it easy to place trail cams near the entrance and get a conclusive result. I'm ready and willing to do so, but can't find them.

 

The reason given is to protect bats. I'm not sold on that one yet.

 

[norseman]

Quote

 

Far Archer wrote:

 

It doesn't require a Rambo - if you're talking about a human being able to conceal themselves to avoid detection from other men.  My team members and I used to do so all the time - and we were being hunted by entire divisions.  Small recon teams.  It's no big deal.

 

One thing I note is that they seem to thrive in swamps, difficult mountain terrain, almost in-penetrable thickets, and altitudes.  There is a reason for that - humans don't very often go into really difficult terrain.  So if you have a pregnant BF, or an elderly BF, they'll stay close to the crib.  That's just common sense.  If they're intelligent, and I believe they are, and if they have rudimentary language - and I think the do - it's a no-brainer.

 

Those that can hunt - go afar or work with other hunters - and hunt.  Scavenge.  Gather.  It's been that way with all animals and men since who-flung-the-chunk.  Some days are better than others - some days are worse than others - but they seem to manage.  They may have knowledge and access to food sources we're not aware of - and that's why I don't get too hung up on the "caloric intake."  It's not a big deal to go for three or four days without eating - and in fact - the body works to store the occasional food, and not store food eaten with great frequency.

 

That's why dieting works much better with lots of nibbles through the day, rather than one big meal just before you retire.

 

As far as being "stealth resupplied with MRE's,"  we weren't.  That's how I know you can go for a few days without eating.  We don't need nearly as much food as we think we do.  And it's amazing at the food you can find as you're out and about - berries,  There must be 30-50 types of just berries available.  Roots - if you know what you're doing - they're edible.  Bugs.  I've eaten at least a bucket (spread over multiple times) of those white grubs when you kick over a rotten log or stump.  Squeeze them, the crap runs out, and they're good to go.

 

Every animal manages to find enough food.  Who knows?  If they're eating berries near their home - it's possible that some of those berry seeds they passed took root, and provides not only a source of food - but a natural barrier and greater concealment for their crib area.

 

How does a family stay hidden?  Primarily be being adapted to nocturnal preferences.  Combine that with taking up residence in terrains humans avoid, and then be aware of any humans that come into your area - and overall - a family can do quite well at remaining undetected.  Humans leave trails - maybe these things do like American Rangers - spread out to conceal their passing, never returning the same way they left out, stepping on roots or rocks to minimize any sign, and again - ingress and egress using thickets, thick bushes, difficult climbs, or any combination thereof.

 

It's not hard.  Only the lazy leave easily detected sign behind. 

 

 

 

If your small Recon team that was hunted by divisions,  lived off the land and drug your whole family into that mission, and stayed hidden? I would be impressed.

 

And on top of that? Each team member wasn't 180 lbs but 800 lbs? I'd be even more impressed.

 

And lastly? We are not talking about evading hunter killer teams for one week long mission. Nor or we talking about evading them for a year long tour....nor two or three years. No we are talking about them evading us for tens of thousands of years.....

 

Thats VERY hard.

 

And Intelligence doesn't account for that anymore than Ishi's tribe being wiped out.

 

Gigantor is right, they must be very low in number and scratching at a living. And in some very remote places as you alluded too. It's the only thing that makes any sense.

[FarArcher]

I don't much give a tinkers-dam (look it up if you are unfamiliar) if you're impressed or not.  As I stated - it was just a way of life.  Two divisions were tasked with intercepting us - including spotting teams around potential landing zones to catch us landing - but we'd set down and take off multiple times before we actually got off the birds to throw them off - and the bird would set down a couple more times after we got off - again to throw them off.  Deception.  Hunters and hunted.  Like we're talking about.

 

BF doesn't tote it's entire family around either - especially if one is sick, injured, elderly - or in the final few days of pregnancy.  So your analogy is really poor.

 

No, we weren't 800 pounds, but we didn't have a natural ghillie suit nor night vision.  And we actually ate pretty good off the land off an on - leaving our limited rations alone.  Discovered brown vines that we could cut and drink water from as it was like bamboo as far a chambers go - and they all held lots of water.  We also couldn't run as fast as BF.  Not even close.  I have absolutely no idea on what connection you're trying to make by specifying the size difference, as there are a number of critical differences.

 

By suggesting they've been evading us for tens of thousands of years is quite a jump of faith.  Narratives and depictions from thousands of years  ago indicate there may have been battles of humans versus them, but I'd imagine if one could go back far enough - they're the ones who at some points had all the physical advantages - and truthfully - they still do.  

 

And if they'd been so successful in evading us - we wouldn't be here, now, would we?  Here in North America - the narratives indicate they were very plentiful when the white man arrived, but just like our diseases wiped out huge populations of Native Americans, they were apparently affected as well.  And we do have narratives of human men fighting these things, who had been stealing humans and in many narratives - consuming them.

 

One thing we humans carry with us - a fear of those different from us.  And we'll hunt down and kill those that are different from us that may pose a threat to us.

 

Now, if a grand total of 100 men can tie up and avoid two divisions - who were actively LOOKING for them, I assure you - it's much easier to avoid the same number who aren't actively tasked with specifically looking for you.  I think their divisions were closer to 12,000 men.

 

You still don't get it.  Men are easy to avoid.  I don't know how much simpler I can make that point - for about the fourth or fifth time.  Men are easy to avoid.

 

And they can't be low in number.  Not possible.  Too many inadvertent sightings and incidents in most states in the union. And that's just the US.  If one is passing through - yep - you'll not run across much.  But if you get out there and spend some time - you soon realize there are a lot more than one might think.

 

Second reason?  Even to maintain a reasonable number - you gotta have a good sized breeding population.  That's the way nature works.  And the size of these things?  No way they're barely scratching out a living.  They're eating very well.  Otherwise - if food was limited - they'd be like the Hobbit and shrink in size to reflect the food resources available.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by FarArcher

[BobbyO]

2 hours ago, gigantor said:

I think the best explanation is that they've gone extinct or are nearly so.

 

But just to leave no stone unturned, I have looked into the cave idea and think it's a plausible one. I find it curious that there is a blackout on cave location info by most states. I challenge anyone (go to it hiflier) to come up with a source of cave locations for WV for example, or any other state. There are known caves everywhere, but none documented except for the tourist attractions and the caving clubs have been muzzled in order to not reveal cave locations. I've spent many hours researching for this info and have found none.

 

Knowing cave locations would make it easy to place trail cams near the entrance and get a conclusive result. I'm ready and willing to do so, but can't find them.

 

The reason given is to protect bats. I'm not sold on that one yet.

 

 

Absolutely there is, I looked in to the PNW and WA specifically years ago when we were talking about caves.

 

Nada.

[VAfooter]

gig, here are some resources for WV caves (not saying they are great, but at least a starting point for further investigations):

 

 

http://var.caves.org/index.php/conservation/closed-caves/var-limited-access-caves

 

http://www.caverbob.com/usalong.htm

 

http://www.wvacs.org/index.html

 

https://www.wvass.org/

 

 

Some are tourist locations, but a number of them are not. The WVASS site looks to be a possible treasure trove of information.

 

 

 

 

 

[MIB]

There are essentially no caves in my area.    It's a function of geology.    We have basically 4 geological "families" converging here.

 

1) Old upper mantle ... one area is somewhat unusual in that it is exposed upper mantle.   Peridotite and dunnite.   No known caves.

 

2) Southern Oregon Cascades volcanos - appears to have an underlying shield with very old lava, but no lava tubes.    The high peaks are primarily andesite, pushed up from below as broken boulders, not flowing lava.   No known caves.

 

3) Coastal terrane - rubble pile formed as the pacific plate subducts under the North American plate.   The light stuff lying on top of the plate scrapes off.   This is mostly sea floor mud plus sometimes an island or reef that formed offshore.    It's almost all sedimentary rock which does not form caves.

 

There are two places known for caves.    There's a small area with limestone at Oregon Caves where Matt Johnson had his sighting.    The caves are not responsible other than for drawing vast numbers of tourists of which "Dr J" was one.   There's a lot more bigfoot activity on the back side of the mountain where there is no limestone.   That mountain is essentially contiguous with the Bluff Creek / Willow Creek area via Red Buttes Wilderness .... THAT is why there are bigfoots, NOT because of the caves.    The other location is near Snow Camp Mountain.   That is a little less known.    However, it is a vertical shaft.   Spelunkers going in have to be lowered on a winch line.   Not bigfoot-friendly.

 

We have a few mine shafts but most are either blocked by steel grates for public safety, have been dozed over, .. or are still in use.    Most of the gold mining here was placer mining, not hard rock mining, and there are no shafts from that.

 

MIB

[norseman]

9 hours ago, FarArcher said:

I don't much give a tinkers-dam (look it up if you are unfamiliar) if you're impressed or not.  As I stated - it was just a way of life.  Two divisions were tasked with intercepting us - including spotting teams around potential landing zones to catch us landing - but we'd set down and take off multiple times before we actually got off the birds to throw them off - and the bird would set down a couple more times after we got off - again to throw them off.  Deception.  Hunters and hunted.  Like we're talking about.

 

BF doesn't tote it's entire family around either - especially if one is sick, injured, elderly - or in the final few days of pregnancy.  So your analogy is really poor.

 

No, we weren't 800 pounds, but we didn't have a natural ghillie suit nor night vision.  And we actually ate pretty good off the land off an on - leaving our limited rations alone.  Discovered brown vines that we could cut and drink water from as it was like bamboo as far a chambers go - and they all held lots of water.  We also couldn't run as fast as BF.  Not even close.  I have absolutely no idea on what connection you're trying to make by specifying the size difference, as there are a number of critical differences.

 

By suggesting they've been evading us for tens of thousands of years is quite a jump of faith.  Narratives and depictions from thousands of years  ago indicate there may have been battles of humans versus them, but I'd imagine if one could go back far enough - they're the ones who at some points had all the physical advantages - and truthfully - they still do.  

 

And if they'd been so successful in evading us - we wouldn't be here, now, would we?  Here in North America - the narratives indicate they were very plentiful when the white man arrived, but just like our diseases wiped out huge populations of Native Americans, they were apparently affected as well.  And we do have narratives of human men fighting these things, who had been stealing humans and in many narratives - consuming them.

 

One thing we humans carry with us - a fear of those different from us.  And we'll hunt down and kill those that are different from us that may pose a threat to us.

 

Now, if a grand total of 100 men can tie up and avoid two divisions - who were actively LOOKING for them, I assure you - it's much easier to avoid the same number who aren't actively tasked with specifically looking for you.  I think their divisions were closer to 12,000 men.

 

You still don't get it.  Men are easy to avoid.  I don't know how much simpler I can make that point - for about the fourth or fifth time.  Men are easy to avoid.

 

And they can't be low in number.  Not possible.  Too many inadvertent sightings and incidents in most states in the union. And that's just the US.  If one is passing through - yep - you'll not run across much.  But if you get out there and spend some time - you soon realize there are a lot more than one might think.

 

Second reason?  Even to maintain a reasonable number - you gotta have a good sized breeding population.  That's the way nature works.  And the size of these things?  No way they're barely scratching out a living.  They're eating very well.  Otherwise - if food was limited - they'd be like the Hobbit and shrink in size to reflect the food resources available.

 

 

 

No, you still don't get it. Bigfoot does tote its family with it every day.

 

So your Recon story is the bad analogy. Because you don't jump into combat with a two year old strapped to your back. And half your team is your parents and grandparents.

 

And just for your information? The hobbit suffered from Island dwarfism. (Flores)

[hiflier]

11 hours ago, gigantor said:

But just to leave no stone unturned, I have looked into the cave idea and think it's a plausible one. I find it curious that there is a blackout on cave location info by most states. I challenge anyone (go to it hiflier) to come up with a source of cave locations for WV for example, or any other state

 

https://www.fws.gov/northeast/pdf/WNS-WVDNR notice to cavers022908.pdf

 

@ MIB http://www.oregongeology.org/sub/milo/index-minemaps.html

            http://www.expertgps.com/data/or/mines.asp

Edited January 25, 2017 by hiflier

[Yuchi1]

Contrasting the FarArcher and Norseman exchanges:

 

One is based upon actual field experiences and the results thereof.

 

The other is predicated upon speculation and conjecture sans any actual field experience much less forensic evidence to back it up.

 

Now, you be the judge.

[Twist]

With all due respect Yuchi,  all thing concerning Bigfoot are speculation and conjecture.  Sure, there are some that claim to have certain "solid" information but until we have a proven and documented species it falls under speculation and conjecture in my book.  

[Yuchi1]

^^^ Appreciate the insight as my comments deal more with known facts (regarding concealment/detection) as FarArcher conveyed relevant to his experiences versus Norseman making prognostications regarding BF which as you accurately stated, is pretty much all conjecture and speculation.