On the dangers of paying for BF expeditions that have no legal permits

[Explorer]

Steve Kulls provides an illuminating summary of his investigation into an aspect of the bigfoot research community (the ugly side).

 

In this blog (see link below), he summarizes his investigation into claims made by Bob Garrett about BF sound recordings supposedly made in the Big Thicket NP (Texas) and the reasons why his expedition of paying customers was told to vacate Federal Forest lands.

 

Of note, is the ~$4,200 fine and expulsion from the National Forest that Garrett's group got for operating a commercial business without a permit.

 

Some of these paying customers never got their money back when the future expeditions were cancelled - according to Skulls investigation.

 

https://squatchdetective.wordpress.com/2017/03/28/expedition-none/

 

Not sure if BFRO gets permits for all their expeditions into National Forest lands; something to ponder.

 

[Old Dog]

I would imagine that this would only effect commercial ventures,  not those that are purely research oriented.   We have never had an issue on any of our forays. Those that we had film crews on were permitted,  but we were never asked for any documentation.  

[norseman]

https://www.fs.fed.us/working-with-us/contracts-commercial-permits/special-use-permit-application

[guyzonthropus]

Thanks for the link Norse! Looks like there could be all  sorts of  different reasons they might deny such permits to a "Bigfoot tour group" in accord with that list. 

Explorer- great article you linked there, and in conjunction with that which Norse posted it would be a simple jump to conclude that Garrett May well have set up the whole thing making money with whatever result came. That is running his tours as long as he could, but knowing that he had no permits used that as the cause of his "victimization" that prevents refunding any cash. With s approach of the BF's dark nature, that should have made permitting impossible from the get go....right?

[norseman]

If people are paying you money to be on national forest?

 

You need a permit.

[Trogluddite]

On 4/2/2017 at 10:01 PM, Explorer said:

Steve Kulls provides an illuminating summary of his investigation into an aspect of the bigfoot research community (the ugly side)....Not sure if BFRO gets permits for all their expeditions into National Forest lands; something to ponder.

Presumably, the legal team for Animal Planet dotted those t's and crossed those i's before letting the Finding Bigfoot crew step on a plane to wherever they were filming.  I'm relatively confident that the in-house corporate lawyers or any entertainment law firms that Animal Planet hired would be familiar with all of the ins and outs of the permitting process.  Now, this doesn't necessarily apply to BFRO expeditions but hopefully they know about this and comply. 

 

On 4/4/2017 at 9:58 AM, Old Dog said:

I would imagine that this would only effect commercial ventures,  not those that are purely research oriented.   We have never had an issue on any of our forays. Those that we had film crews on were permitted,  but we were never asked for any documentation.  

 

The issue wouldn't be whether the group was "research oriented," it would be whether the applicant was a for profit or not for profit entity, as defined by state and Federal law.  So, if what I've heard is true about some organizations being incorporated or established as any for profit entity, it wouldn't matter if they were taking the money to do research.  If they are properly organized, registered, and functioning as a not for profit entity, then they may get a break on the fees. 

[bipedalist]

I've watched Moneymaker in 2007 joust with Forest personnel claiming his "groups" were not truly paying for services.   In that case he seemed to have forestalled the attempt to run the group off for permits/fees not paid.  Others have run into similar situations and not had as good a luck.  You can no longer leave game cams out on National Park properties or they (if found) are considered "refuse" if left 24 hrs or more I have learned and you forfeit them and get fined.  That is unless you have proper professional/educational/scientific vetting going through a process with such entities. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by bipedalist

[Catmandoo]

Out of curiosity, I briefly scanned the link to the permits. I work alone but believe there is a requirement for a nurse on 'group outings', regardless if they are profit/non profit. Does anyone  know what the body count is to have a nurse? Is there risk to the nurse's credentials if they are busted for being in violation of the permit requirement? Does the nurse have to know how to deal with hurt feelings?

[starchunk]

Interesting how Moneymakers name comes up in situations like these. I think, he, the bfro model and his association withe Finding Bigfoot have done so much more harm than good.

[Trogluddite]

^^

Cat, 

 

In all seriousness, the questions you're asking shouldn't be answered (in a legal sense) on a blog.  The question of what is required will depend upon the entity (private, state, Federal, tribal) that owns the land.  The question of how few or how many people in an organized, sponsored group will depend on the liability insurance policy of the organizing group.  The questions of revocation for a medical professional would depend on the licensing entity in each state.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and state with a high degree of confidence is that not a single person here is qualified to answer all of those questions.  

[bipedalist]

I believe there is some effort to recruit nurses, EMT's, health-care technicians to some extent into and onto some of these BFRO expeditions.  

 

I was on one with a pharmacist and a nurse to be specific.  I am sure there are many other health care professionals on other trips.  Didn't need any on my trip but it is always good to have them and not need them than go begging.

[Trogluddite]

^^

Don't disagree in the least, Bi.  And arguably, everyone who hikes any serious amount of time should probably take both the American Red Cross basic first aid course and a first aid course oriented on wilderness injuries.  (Speaking as the hiker with the broken arm), you don't want to be the group that's just had a fellow hiker break an arm and have everyone else standing around looking panicked.  

[wiiawiwb]

I've backpacked and hiked all of my life and 95% of the time I am alone. Does it help to know emergency medical procedures? Of course. I've taken several courses. I've also taken a fair amount of wilderness survival training. Did I need a nurse by my side to put a cold cloth on my neck or a pharmacist to give me Advil?

 

I'd have no interest being out on a serious investigation with a hang around.

Edited May 17, 2017 by wiiawiwb

[Old Dog]

12 hours ago, wiiawiwb said:

I've backpacked and hiked all of my life and 95% of the time I am alone. Does it help to know emergency medical procedures? Of course. I've taken several courses. I've also taken a fair amount of wilderness survival training. Did I need a nurse by my side to put a cold cloth on my neck or a pharmacist to give me Advil?

 

I'd have no interest being out on a serious investigation with a hang around.

 

They're only a "hang around" until you actually need them, kind of like that cold cloth or Advil.

[wiiawiwb]

You're kidding me, right?  Have you ever gone out in the woods alone?  If yes, do you bring along a nurse?