Guest Cricket Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, ioyza said: They'd just avoid the bunker... or throw rocks at it from just out of view. I mean honestly, is it that hard to stop underestimating them? I don't claim to be an expert on BF behavior or psyche, BUT I think it's underestimating them to assume they would continue with what have really been reactions and behaviors to very short term types of interactions thus far, in response to very limited bouts of contact. I think if they are as intelligent, curious and sensitive as many claim, they would habituate to someone who was there constantly over a long time who demonstrates they are being relatively very passive. Even the most suspicious and feral of my feral cat colony that I have been managing for four years get used to what I and my helpers do, given enough patience, time, and repetition, and exposure. Besides, it hasn't been tried and it appears it's time to start thinking out of the box. Edited July 27, 2017 by Cricket
ohiobill Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 On 7/24/2017 at 9:59 PM, xspider1 said: Good luck. These animals are apparently far more intelligent than any other animal that we know of and they are obviously at risk from humans (who can be very stupid.) It's really no wonder that they evade detection so effectively. If that's true we can certainly stop worrying about the PGF being real. That one didn't evade detection at all or even seem to recognize the camera or guns or understand their purpose. Of course, to be fair, we should probably consider all possible options. Maybe Patty is real but somehow mentally challenged? Another option might be that it wouldn't need to move fast if it was a hoax as the person would be in on it but how likely is that really? Who's ever heard of a bigfoot hoax or people lying to make money? Or, maybe, just maybe, it was genetically engineered by aliens and traveled light years to come here and raise our consciousness 50 years ago before disappearing, forgoing stealth just that one time, never to be clearly photographed again...mind blown! All I can say is that probably our only chance of ever capturing one of these uber beasts probably rests with Putin darting an Almasty the next time he's out darting (rare & elusive but obviously not impossible to find, dart & study) siberian tigers, that cat can shoot! And as ex-KGB chief he's pretty crafty himself. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-putin-tiger-idUSLV19939720080902 Or maybe the guys from Mountain Monsters will come through, they're like the A-Team of bigfoot hunters with all the welding and plans. Maybe one day we will all love it when a plan comes together! 1
Patterson-Gimlin Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Cricket said: I don't claim to be an expert on BF behavior or psyche, BUT I think it's underestimating them to assume they would continue with what have really been reactions and behaviors to very short term types of interactions thus far, in response to very limited bouts of contact. I think if they are as intelligent, curious and sensitive as many claim, they would habituate to someone who was there constantly over a long time who demonstrates they are being relatively very passive. Even the most suspicious and feral of my feral cat colony that I have been managing for four years get used to what I and my helpers do, given enough patience, time, and repetition, and exposure. Besides, it hasn't been tried and it appears it's time to start thinking out of the box. I agree with what you are saying. However ,there are those who claim to do just what you describe habituate. I am sure it works quite well with feral cats and other animals as you described. These are known animals that obviously exist. Here in lies the problem. Well ,you know my stance on the authenticity of the creature .
xspider1 Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 "Good luck. These animals are apparently far more intelligent than any other animal that we know of and they are obviously at risk from humans (who can be very stupid.) It's really no wonder that they evade detection so effectively. " "If that's true we can certainly stop worrying about the PGF being real. That one didn't evade detection at all or even seem to recognize the camera or guns or understand their purpose. Of course, to be fair, we should probably consider all possible options. Maybe Patty is real but somehow mentally challenged? - ohiobill She seemed to have evaded detection by many PGf skeptics/skoftics, no? Did you miss all of the experiences described above (for many, many years) in which elusive animals, when surprised, very often just walk away? Suggesting that Patty was mentally challenged is somewhat crass imo, and that is not what I expected in terms of intelligent conversation.
Guest Cricket Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 44 minutes ago, Patterson-Gimlin said: I agree with what you are saying. However ,there are those who claim to do just what you describe habituate. I am sure it works quite well with feral cats and other animals as you described. These are known animals that obviously exist. Here in lies the problem. Well ,you know my stance on the authenticity of the creature . Have they really quietly bunkered in one place, 24/7, for however many years? I'm still thinking of the Korean photographer and what he endured in solitude. Yes, I know your stance on BF, but I guess my point is really that so much seems to have been tried, it's not getting the desired results, and this is one (admittedly) extreme tactic that really hasn't been done in quite this kind of sustained way.
Patterson-Gimlin Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 I can't be sure of all the details . I do believe there are some on this forum. Someone should be better qualified to tell you about the details. I do like your way of thinking . Obviously thinking out of the box is warranted. The old tried and true methods are not working. I am in favor of new methods and professional research on the subject matter. I do support discovery and conservation if the creature does in fact exist . In spite of my beliefs or what logic dictates. I hope I am wrong. It is not like it would be the first time.
JKH Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 Yes, it's officially been done with mixed results, e.g. the Erickson Project. Quote Matt Moneymaker Retweeted I know scientist is legit because I was the one who selected her in 2005. BFRO expedition groupie who is not afraid, and she's PhD biologist Matt Moneymaker added, Matt MoneymakerVerified account @MattMoneymaker1 The gray tip patches are damaged hairs -- damage caused by repeated freezing and unfreezing. This one was studied by scientist for two years There are unofficial studies that some like to term "habituation". Others describe the humans involved more accurately, IMO, as "long-term witnesses". Their observations over time can be found here and elsewhere, and are great resources. 1
hiflier Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 But, I would hazard a guess, that they are not great resources for anything like a good, clear, sharp, set of photos?
Guest Cricket Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 14 hours ago, Patterson-Gimlin said: I can't be sure of all the details . I do believe there are some on this forum. Someone should be better qualified to tell you about the details. I do like your way of thinking . Obviously thinking out of the box is warranted. The old tried and true methods are not working. I am in favor of new methods and professional research on the subject matter. I do support discovery and conservation if the creature does in fact exist . In spite of my beliefs or what logic dictates. I hope I am wrong. It is not like it would be the first time. 1 hour ago, JKH said: Yes, it's officially been done with mixed results, e.g. the Erickson Project. There are unofficial studies that some like to term "habituation". Others describe the humans involved more accurately, IMO, as "long-term witnesses". Their observations over time can be found here and elsewhere, and are great resources. I have to make a correction; Park wasn't there continuously for 6 years, but for bouts of many months over the course of 5 or 6 years. I was basing what I wrote on what I (dimly) recalled from the PBS program on his work there that I saw a few years ago. But here's an article that describes what he did better than I can relay: http://www.mediod.com/blog/2014/11/8/siberian-tiger-the-remarkable-story-of-sooyong-park Maybe someone who knows what's been done with BF can read that and compare to see if it's really the same kind of thing.
ioyza Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 Plenty of habituation that, sure, might be better termed 'long-term witnesses' - I'd say Enoch goes well beyond that. I imagine there are other stories that transcend the relationship of 'witness' that we never hear about. The common denominator is their behavior. They treat sasquatch like neighbors or potential friends, not prey or research subjects. There are other threads with pages and pages of the sort of retorts we're about to hear again from the same people, about how absurd and unbelievable that is, stop making excuses, extraordinary claims extraordinary evidence, all that. I suggest you read what the habituators have to say and decide for yourself. They make perfect sense to me. You'll never get a BF to pose for you - quality photos will always be Black Swan events. 2
LeafTalker Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 Seconding what JKH and ioyza are saying. Cricket, a great book that will help you understand how people are able to get close to BFs is Chris Noel's "Sasquatch Rising", published in 2013. In that book is lots of testimony from several different long-term witnesses (thanks, JKH) who have been living side by side with the BF for years and years. Armed with the information in that book, you'll get a better sense of what really happens when people (mostly unwittingly, at first) engage in Park-like "observation" of the BF. And once you know all that stuff -- what works and what doesn't, and how it all really goes down, when you're in close proximity to them -- you can better assess what direction makes the best sense for you to take in your own investigations. 1
Guest Cricket Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 1 hour ago, LeafTalker said: Seconding what JKH and ioyza are saying. Cricket, a great book that will help you understand how people are able to get close to BFs is Chris Noel's "Sasquatch Rising", published in 2013. In that book is lots of testimony from several different long-term witnesses (thanks, JKH) who have been living side by side with the BF for years and years. Armed with the information in that book, you'll get a better sense of what really happens when people (mostly unwittingly, at first) engage in Park-like "observation" of the BF. And once you know all that stuff -- what works and what doesn't, and how it all really goes down, when you're in close proximity to them -- you can better assess what direction makes the best sense for you to take in your own investigations. Thank you, LeafTalker, I will add that to my book list! I've seen many of Noel's videos, but not read any of his books.
LeafTalker Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 I LOVED that book. Some of it you may want to skip (I skipped some of it); but the information shared by the long-term witnesses (either as journal entries from their private journals, or in conversation with Noel) is mesmerizing.
Trogluddite Posted July 27, 2017 Posted July 27, 2017 3 hours ago, ioyza said: .... I'd say Enoch goes well beyond that. I suggest you read what the habituators have to say and decide for yourself. They make perfect sense to me. I did. I have. Star Trek has better fan fiction. 3
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