Camo - who uses it and which pattern?

[wiiawiwb]

When you go into the woods look for Jewelweed and use it as a prophylactic to help you from getting poison ivy in the first place.  You'd mascerate the leaves in your hand then spread it on your arms hands, face and other exposed areas.

 

It's easy to spot and grows in the same areas you'll find poison ivy.

 

https://altnature.com/jewelweed.htm

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=jewelweed&FORM=HDRSC2

[hiflier]

2 hours ago, wiiawiwb said:

When you go into the woods look for Jewelweed and use it as a prophylactic to help you from getting poison ivy in the first place

 

For the same reason people that work in areas known for Poison Ivy wet exposed skin areas down with water because oil and water don't mix. It is also called Spotted Touch-Me-Not in some locations.

[FarArcher]

On 8/3/2018 at 10:26 AM, wiiawiwb said:

 

Many predators around the globe stalk deer, or its equivalent, at night. Are you saying that a person in very effective camo, such as a ghillie suit (or ASAT I would assert), would be detected without hesitation?

 

I'm assuming that's speculation on your part. I find it hard to believe that camo which works with humans and animals alike but, magically, is ineffective with a sasquatch.

 

Not buying into that theory.

 

 

I'm not selling anything.  Believe whatever you wish.

 

Often, it's actually easier for someone on alert to see someone in a ghillie suit than in earth colored clothes.  And if one has a bit of a color vision deficiency - that sometimes works to see camo/cut brush/ghillie suits as they'll actually stand out against a natural background.

 

In addition - when you have on a ghillie suit - every twitch or movement you make is greatly amplified.  So you have what you believe is a good position, you're right handed, and a critter approaches from your right.  If you move your head one little bit - a lot of ghilie moves too.  If you turn slightly - meaning you're not disciplined enough to not move for hours - that moves a lot more ghillie suit - and so easy to pick up.

 

It's no magic.  It's not speculation.

 

And other predators that hunt deer and such by night also hunt by scent.  That's not speculation, either.

 

I don't know what type of vision these things have - but I can say that it's much different that what we have, and they are at a bit of a disadvantage compared to us during daylight hours.  At night?  They own that.

Edited August 5, 2018 by FarArcher

[wiiawiwb]

You're giving an example of a person in a ghillie suit moving around. That violates every rule about staying hidden in the first place. If you're moving around, which no clear-thinking person who wishes success would do, it doesn't  what type of camo one uses.

 

You're statement about predators using scent to hunt at night is does not comport with the facts. "The tigers sense of smell is one of the few that does not contribute to its success in terms of hunting. In fact, it is used sparingly and rarely in hunting, and is favoured as part of the personal interactions of these wild cats."

 

https://www.tigers.org.za/tigers-smell.html

 

 

[FarArcher]

16 hours ago, wiiawiwb said:

You're giving an example of a person in a ghillie suit moving around. That violates every rule about staying hidden in the first place. If you're moving around, which no clear-thinking person who wishes success would do, it doesn't  what type of camo one uses.

 

You're statement about predators using scent to hunt at night is does not comport with the facts. "The tigers sense of smell is one of the few that does not contribute to its success in terms of hunting. In fact, it is used sparingly and rarely in hunting, and is favoured as part of the personal interactions of these wild cats."

 

https://www.tigers.org.za/tigers-smell.html

 

 

 

I've only seen a handful of men who could remain still for hours on end.  And I wasn't even talking about moving around - if you care to read what I posted again - I said every twitch and movement is greatly amplified.  (Larger surface area)

 

I think you like to generalize a bit too much - predators sense of smell DOES in fact assist them in their hunts.  Interesting you brought up a tiger.  I just so happened to have killed a tiger that had been stalking me for three days and three nights.

 

Killed it on the third night.

 

And for the record - I didn't kill that stalking tiger here in North America. 

 

Considering what we're really talking about - why would you bring up something that doesn't even live on this continent?

 

"Comport" that non-smell concept with a brown bear.  Or wolves.  Coyotes.  Wild dogs.  Black bear.

 

You know.  Stuff on this continent.

Edited August 6, 2018 by FarArcher

[wiiawiwb]

........withdrawn

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by wiiawiwb

[norseman]

On 8/5/2018 at 6:36 AM, wiiawiwb said:

You're giving an example of a person in a ghillie suit moving around. That violates every rule about staying hidden in the first place. If you're moving around, which no clear-thinking person who wishes success would do, it doesn't  what type of camo one uses.

 

You're statement about predators using scent to hunt at night is does not comport with the facts. "The tigers sense of smell is one of the few that does not contribute to its success in terms of hunting. In fact, it is used sparingly and rarely in hunting, and is favoured as part of the personal interactions of these wild cats."

 

https://www.tigers.org.za/tigers-smell.html

 

 

 

Bigfoot, based on reports and film, is of the Hominidae family if its real. So we can extrapolate its sight, vision, smell, etc from extant members of the family which include humans.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

 

Some primates have good night vision, for example like the nocturnal bush baby. But none of the “great apes” do. What we do have is excellent color vision. Our hearing is ok and our sense of smell is pretty abysmal to compare to say a Bear. I read a report one time that a black bear broke into a cabin and ate every can of canned food in the cabin except for a couple of cans of sauerkraut. They were not touched.

 

Bigfoot is reported to be nocturnal. But I dont believe its operating in the same way as a Bush baby does. Which is something akin to looking through night vision. Its eyes must be at a disadvantage at night. And of course great ape intelligence is a real power house in the animal kingdom. So what the eyes do not see, the big brain helps by filling in the blanks. You understand your prey and you get ahead of them. You know where they are gonna be. And you wait. Close ambush.

 

I would assume they have been pressed into a life of being nocturnal to avoid competition with humans.

 

 

 

 

[FarArcher]

Some good points.

 

We have great color vision - but we lose all that at night - and the advantages that go with it.

 

These things have huge eyes compared to ours - and being larger, will take in more light.  But they also have reflective eyes - meaning incoming light bounces around a bit, combining with other photons freshly coming in - and what hits their retina will be somewhat amplified.  And that ability that we see as eye shine - that's something else. 

 

When we heard a slight noise the night we'd put a deer out of its misery as something had knocked it's neck all out of kilter - almost broke it - we went to the edge, look down fifty feet or so below us - and seven pairs of red eyes - spaced pretty far apart - that very slowly blinked out one by one as each one eased behind a tree to get out of the direct light.  Unlike deer and such - that will just stand there and look at the light.

 

So, their night vision will be much, much better than ours, just based on simple physics - the larger the lens - the more light it gathers.  Add photon amplification through reflection - that gives them a big leg up as well.

 

Somehow, however, they seem to have more trouble spotting someone in daylight hours - like in a tree stand, for example - but if someone is in a tree stand before first light, or even after sundown - they seem to pick them out immediately.

 

Indicating something other than the benefits of larger eyes.

[hiflier]

Even though there is a large DeltaT between a Human's body heat compared to the ambient temperature (not necessarily in Summer) of the surrounding habitat Humans may not register all that bright to a creature that is maybe sensitive to infrared. And that could be much less so in the heat of the day but at night the small temperature difference may be more noticeable as the environment around a Human cools down? It could be why a Sasquatch's night vision seems so good. Because warm bodies at night display relatively better than in the daytime. Even in the daytime Humans and animals hunkered down in shade may actually be giving themselves away more than standing in a sunny clearing or on a sunny trail?

 

And I will bet that that could be fairly easily verified with a thermal device. It all about the physics of temperature differences. Sure, Humans at 98.6 will show up thermally on an 80 degree day even if in the open but in 65 degree shade one would thing they would show up more. The infrared range of Sasquatch's vision, should they have the capability, might not show extreme ends of a temperature range but may see enough of a difference to matter of the temperature range is say 15-20 degrees F to make out a warm-blooded creature like a deer or a Human? 

 

Makes me thing a blind made of space blanket material would be a good night time enclosure for infrared invisibility.

Edited August 7, 2018 by hiflier

[norseman]

1 hour ago, FarArcher said:

Some good points.

 

We have great color vision - but we lose all that at night - and the advantages that go with it.

 

These things have huge eyes compared to ours - and being larger, will take in more light.  But they also have reflective eyes - meaning incoming light bounces around a bit, combining with other photons freshly coming in - and what hits their retina will be somewhat amplified.  And that ability that we see as eye shine - that's something else. 

 

When we heard a slight noise the night we'd put a deer out of its misery as something had knocked it's neck all out of kilter - almost broke it - we went to the edge, look down fifty feet or so below us - and seven pairs of red eyes - spaced pretty far apart - that very slowly blinked out one by one as each one eased behind a tree to get out of the direct light.  Unlike deer and such - that will just stand there and look at the light.

 

So, their night vision will be much, much better than ours, just based on simple physics - the larger the lens - the more light it gathers.  Add photon amplification through reflection - that gives them a big leg up as well.

 

Somehow, however, they seem to have more trouble spotting someone in daylight hours - like in a tree stand, for example - but if someone is in a tree stand before first light, or even after sundown - they seem to pick them out immediately.

 

Indicating something other than the benefits of larger eyes.

 

In primates? You either have good night vision or you have good color vision. You dont get both. Bush babies have a tapetum lucidum. But none of the great apes exhibit a tapetum lucidum. Which is what allows certain mammals and especially predators such as canines and felines and bush babies to see very well in the dark.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapetum_lucidum

 

Larger eyes in Neanderthals seemed to help them cope with low light settings in Europe, but lacked a tapetum lucidum.

 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150805-neanderthals-strange-large-eyes

 

But that may have came at a cost as Caucasian boys have the highest prevelance of color blindness of all multi ethnic school children. As Europeans have shown some of the highest Neanderthals genes in DNA tests in the world. Up to 8%.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140403084243.htm

 

Red eye glare is prevelent in humans when a flash from a camera strikes the retina and the red blood vessels present “shine”. But an animal like say a Cougar’s eyes which possesses a tapetum lucidum, shines a white light back to the viewer.....not red.

 

A large “great ape” like Sasquatch that is reported to be nocturnal may be color blind. Or maybe like humans only certain amount of the male population is color blind. Combined with a larger eyeball? Could make them better at seeing in the dark than humans with color vision do. But they still will not see as well in the dark as a Cougar or a Wolf. Of course during the day time that would put them at a disadvantage. Something else I noticed hunting Coyotes all my life is that they can see a white light spotlight. But they cannot see a red lens spotlight.... as such we always bought or modified spotlights with a red lens.

 

Ultimately its a tradeoff. It seems with modern humans the ability to distiguish colors of ripe fruit vs unripe fruit in sunny Africa far outweighed the need to see well in the dark. Unlike their Neanderthal cousins who needed to be able to hunt in low light situations in the far north. Great Ape adaptations to Earth’s latitude. But Im sure both species still fed the bellies of mega predators with much better nigh vision than either human.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MIB]

On 8/6/2018 at 9:14 PM, norseman said:

In primates? You either have good night vision or you have good color vision. You dont get both.

 

In KNOWN primates.    If the eyes are as large as FarArcher suggests, the need for extreme specialization for one or the other may not exist.    For example, if the eye is so big it has 3x as many rods and 3x as many cones, it does not have to specialize for either, it potentially more than exceeds us at both color vision and night vision at the same time.   Simple physics.   The only time that dichotomy you look towards is real is if the eyes are the size of our eyes.

 

MIB

[norseman]

2 hours ago, MIB said:

 

In KNOWN primates.    If the eyes are as large as FarArcher suggests, the need for extreme specialization for one or the other may not exist.    For example, if the eye is so big it has 3x as many rods and 3x as many cones, it does not have to specialize for either, it potentially more than exceeds us at both color vision and night vision at the same time.   Simple physics.   The only time that dichotomy you look towards is real is if the eyes are the size of our eyes.

 

MIB

 

Thats all we have to go on...

 

In the case of Neanderthals, their eyes were much bigger than ours. Better suited for low light conditions. But the genes they passed on to modern Europeans shows the highest rate of color blindness in males of all modern races of humans.

 

In nature generally if you dont use it? You lose it. If Bigfoot is mostly nocturnal, I would guess based on what we do know that his color vision may not be as good as ours. Or maybe females do better while some or many males could suffer from color blindness. I would suppose it would depend on how close of a relation they share with us.

 

And color blindness may have other pros besides night vision. It may make you a better hunter.

 

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/can-color-blindness-make-better-hunter/

 

Either way, if I was to bet on a Cougars night vision vs a Bigfoot’s night vision I would bet on the Cougar seeing much better in pitch black than any Ape. But vision is only one of many senses. And camouflage is only one of many defenses. But its a valid one. Nature selects for it. Black bears living in dark forests are black. Grizzly bears prowling yellow grass lands are cinnamon. Polar bears? Are white. Fawns are born with spots and lose them as they mature. Snowshoe rabbits turn white with the approaching snows of winter. So forth and so on.

 

An Apes biggest weapon is its brain. Our senses are mediocre at best in the animal kingdom. We need the extra computing power not to crunch vision data or sound data. We need that extra computing power to plot our chess pieces on the board. We think about strategy. We plan days, weeks, months in advance. We remember our mistakes and adapt. 

 

There is a huge void in the genus Homo with only one species left.....us..... maybe. But its fun to think about all our bipedal cousins, and just how amazing they must have been. From Africa to Europe to Asia and maybe even N. America. We filled every niche, every environment. Not many species in the animal kingdom can claim such a feat as being global. Where Bigfoot fits into this I do not know. But certainly in the last decade our understanding of how diverse and how mobile our genus was has grown by leaps and bounds. 

 

Our brains did that!

 

 

[FarArcher]

On 8/8/2018 at 11:01 PM, norseman said:

 

Thats all we have to go on...

 

In the case of Neanderthals, their eyes were much bigger than ours. Better suited for low light conditions. But the genes they passed on to modern Europeans shows the highest rate of color blindness in males of all modern races of humans.

 

In nature generally if you dont use it? You lose it. If Bigfoot is mostly nocturnal, I would guess based on what we do know that his color vision may not be as good as ours. Or maybe females do better while some or many males could suffer from color blindness. I would suppose it would depend on how close of a relation they share with us.

 

And color blindness may have other pros besides night vision. It may make you a better hunter.

 

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/can-color-blindness-make-better-hunter/

 

Either way, if I was to bet on a Cougars night vision vs a Bigfoot’s night vision I would bet on the Cougar seeing much better in pitch black than any Ape. But vision is only one of many senses. And camouflage is only one of many defenses. But its a valid one. Nature selects for it. Black bears living in dark forests are black. Grizzly bears prowling yellow grass lands are cinnamon. Polar bears? Are white. Fawns are born with spots and lose them as they mature. Snowshoe rabbits turn white with the approaching snows of winter. So forth and so on.

 

An Apes biggest weapon is its brain. Our senses are mediocre at best in the animal kingdom. We need the extra computing power not to crunch vision data or sound data. We need that extra computing power to plot our chess pieces on the board. We think about strategy. We plan days, weeks, months in advance. We remember our mistakes and adapt. 

 

There is a huge void in the genus Homo with only one species left.....us..... maybe. But its fun to think about all our bipedal cousins, and just how amazing they must have been. From Africa to Europe to Asia and maybe even N. America. We filled every niche, every environment. Not many species in the animal kingdom can claim such a feat as being global. Where Bigfoot fits into this I do not know. But certainly in the last decade our understanding of how diverse and how mobile our genus was has grown by leaps and bounds. 

 

Our brains did that!

 

 

 

I think I see our disagreement.

 

You say there's only one Homo left - us.

 

I say there's at least one other.  

 

Because I saw the SOB - up close and in the clear - and it wasn't an ape or ape derivative.  It was a cave man.  Not human, but a primitive kind of man.

 

I've never seen a bigfoot or sasquatch - maybe you're talking about an entirely different critter - I'm talking about a huge, massive, hairy cave man.

 

And we don't really know that much about their eyes - do we?

 

Just having a larger eye isn't enough.  One can substitute a larger lens and use it at night - and while your night vision will improve - it's nothing like what these things have.  Get a telescope, a pair of binoculars with large objective lenses - they'll only do so much.

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by FarArcher

[norseman]

We have mapped the Neanderthal and Denisovian DNA genome. Plus our own. And we know that Europeans and Asians are hybrids interbreeding with those species. Which I think most would consider “Cavemen”. So yes we know a thing or two about them, because we can read their DNA. But of course that does not mean that Bigfoot are represented correctly within what we do know. 

 

I respect your sighting. When I say only Homo Sapiens are left....I mean officially. I very much support the theory that cryptid primates, including other species in the genus Homo could still exist. Im just not as lucky as you to have a sighting of my own.

[hiflier]

Doesn't sound like FarArcher considered himself lucky LOL if I remember some of his past postings correctly. I might look at a sighting differently but then If it happened it would be after I know what I know now. I think Far Archer was taken completely by surprise as a non-initiate because at the time he didn't know- or knew very little and maybe thought the whole thing was a joke until............