Fatal cougar attack in Washington State

[Airdale]

BC witness: He can carry it on our outings, but be advised that most towns, and many rural municipalities, have local regulations re open carrying any firearm within their boundaries.

 

Should have qualified my post a bit BC; while I can legally carry concealed in most of the US, in Canada I am more concerned with defense against aggressive wild things. Normally .357 would be marginal, but I chrono the loads carried in the Rossi and with the 12 inch barrel it equates to .44 mag revolver power. Hornady 125 gr. JHP run 2,000 fps and 1,190 plus ft. pounds muzzle energy. Just picked up a box of Aguila 142 gr. JSWC I need to hit the range with to test.

[BC witness]

That sounds OK for cougar, wolf, or coy-dog, but on the light side for a 400 lb black, and way light for any grizzly. I hit my charging grizz with 3 180gr spritzers from a 22" 30-06 barrel, which put him on the ground, but not dead. It took another 240gr JHP from my 44mag to the back of the head to end it for him.

[MIB]

Yeah, exactly.   

 

Trying to use muzzle energy as a predictor of end results is a mistake.   Its doesn't track with field results.   Essentially, it's like trying to provide a scalar answer to a vector question. 

 

MIB

 

[norseman]

Enter Taylor KO value...

 

http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

[Airdale]

The Taylor KO method ignores some important factors, unless there are assumptions made and not explained on the linked page. What jumps out immediately is bullet construction; the 125 gr. JHP I used in the example above (and is not anything I'd carry for other than the commonly encountered variety of two legged predators) is a far cry from the 160 gr. hard cast electro-plated SWC handload that punched six inches into the end grain fir of a pin table from my four inch Security Six before angling up to send a bowling pin end over end. The Taylor index would have you better armed with a 240 gr. .44 Mag (bullet type unspecified) at 1,400 FPS (KO of 20) than my .308 with 150 gr. JBT at 2,700 FPS (KO of 17).

[norseman]

I would agree that the formula favors bullet weight over velocity.

 

But there is this.....

 

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

[Airdale]

The Garrett article actually makes sense in a counter intuitive way. When an object breaks the sound barrier, air is compressed in front of it. This is why supersonic aircraft (and high velocity bullets) are designed with sleek, pointy noses and profiles to move as smoothly as possible through the air. Looking at a Remington 405 gr. JSP .45-70 cartridge from a box that accompanied the 1894 Government Model Trapdoor Springfield that my late father-in-law gifted me shortly before he passed, it has a flat point about 1/4" across. Even with a round nose, it would not be the best design for supersonic flight.

 

My thought is that the faster a projectile like that goes beyond the sound barrier, the denser that "bow wave" will be. It's possible that as the bullet reaches the target, that region of compressed air hits first and reacts with a counter force that acts as a brake on velocity. This is strictly supposition and to test would likely need a laboratory with Doppler radar such as Hornady used in developing the heat resistant tips for their ELD bullets.

 

Regardless, getting the attention of a heavily muscled, bulky animal, requires a solid bullet that can punch through tough tissue and/or break bones. It needs to be fired from a weapon that you can shoot enough to develop proficiency for good bullet placement and can physically pack comfortably. Those two are limiting factors for me due to rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia. I can empty a 20 round magazine of 150 gr. .308 from my M-1A Socom 16 without a hitch, but two or three of the same rounds from a bolt action are going to be reminding me of their kick for a day or two. Too much of that will have me visiting Virginia Mason for shoulder reconstruction, and I already carry enough aftermarket parts from the waist down, I'd like to keep the remaining OEM parts functional for as long as possible!

[norseman]

3 hours ago, Airdale said:

The Garrett article actually makes sense in a counter intuitive way. When an object breaks the sound barrier, air is compressed in front of it. This is why supersonic aircraft (and high velocity bullets) are designed with sleek, pointy noses and profiles to move as smoothly as possible through the air. Looking at a Remington 405 gr. JSP .45-70 cartridge from a box that accompanied the 1894 Government Model Trapdoor Springfield that my late father-in-law gifted me shortly before he passed, it has a flat point about 1/4" across. Even with a round nose, it would not be the best design for supersonic flight.

 

My thought is that the faster a projectile like that goes beyond the sound barrier, the denser that "bow wave" will be. It's possible that as the bullet reaches the target, that region of compressed air hits first and reacts with a counter force that acts as a brake on velocity. This is strictly supposition and to test would likely need a laboratory with Doppler radar such as Hornady used in developing the heat resistant tips for their ELD bullets.

 

Regardless, getting the attention of a heavily muscled, bulky animal, requires a solid bullet that can punch through tough tissue and/or break bones. It needs to be fired from a weapon that you can shoot enough to develop proficiency for good bullet placement and can physically pack comfortably. Those two are limiting factors for me due to rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia. I can empty a 20 round magazine of 150 gr. .308 from my M-1A Socom 16 without a hitch, but two or three of the same rounds from a bolt action are going to be reminding me of their kick for a day or two. Too much of that will have me visiting Virginia Mason for shoulder reconstruction, and I already carry enough aftermarket parts from the waist down, I'd like to keep the remaining OEM parts functional for as long as possible!

 

I understand, Im having neck issues right now and I think its causing vertigo. Which has taken me completely out of the fight.

 

I remember reading about “meplat” being important in dangerous game. Meplat is the flat part of the nose of the bullet. The bigger the meplat the better. Oh its was Garrett as well.

 

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/meplats.html

[Airdale]

Best explanation of meplat I've ever seen Norse, the Garrett website is now bookmarked. Also read the article on .45 Colt vs. .44 Mag and it is an eye opener. I haven't had a center fire single action since I sold my 7.5" Super Blackhawk .44 Mag back in the eighties, and had forgotten how easy on the hands they are in recoil. Will have to corner one of the cowboy action shooters at the range and try out a .45 to see if it bothers my paws too much. If that works, something like a 4 5/8" .45 Ruger may be added to the armory for mountain carry. Thanks much for that link.

[SWWASAS]

My thought relative to the physics of bullets is that a highly rounded projectile is easily deflected by any variation in what it hits and may deflect away from critical target areas.   When a light streamlined bullet hits something solid it decelerates more gradually due to streamlining and impact shock force is spread out relative to time of application.   F=MA  (Newtons second law).   Where as in the case of a bulllet, the force applied,   F,     is equal to the mass of the bullet multiplied by the rate of decelleration.       The quicker the rate of deceleration because of flat nose mushrooming the more the force applied at the point of impact.   A flat nose bullet spreads out or mushrooms more on impact and delivers more shock to the point of impact.   If that is a bear skull problem solved with scrambled brains.    To apply more force with the same velocity bullet,  you have to either increase the mass of the bullet or decellerate it quicker.    That is sort of the idea about the Hornady Critical Defense type bullet that highly mushroom on impact.    The military complained about the M-16 when first fielded because the rounds would hit foliage and go tumbling off wherever.  I have a bit of personal experience with that sort of light deflected round tumbling past overhead.  

[norseman]

8 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

My thought relative to the physics of bullets is that a highly rounded projectile is easily deflected by any variation in what it hits and may deflect away from critical target areas.   When a light streamlined bullet hits something solid it decelerates more gradually due to streamlining and impact shock force is spread out relative to time of application.   F=MA  (Newtons second law).   Where as in the case of a bulllet, the force applied,   F,     is equal to the mass of the bullet multiplied by the rate of decelleration.       The quicker the rate of deceleration because of flat nose mushrooming the more the force applied at the point of impact.   A flat nose bullet spreads out or mushrooms more on impact and delivers more shock to the point of impact.   If that is a bear skull problem solved with scrambled brains.    To apply more force with the same velocity bullet,  you have to either increase the mass of the bullet or decellerate it quicker.    That is sort of the idea about the Hornady Critical Defense type bullet that highly mushroom on impact.    The military complained about the M-16 when first fielded because the rounds would hit foliage and go tumbling off wherever.  I have a bit of personal experience with that sort of light deflected round tumbling past overhead.  

 

The idea behind a big bore bullet with a flat nose? Is for it to retain its shape and weight and drive through anything it encounters. Penetration is king. The bullet diameter is sufficient to begin with. People who seek out this style of round are usually professional guides of dangerous game. The prey often times is wounded. And probably will only get one or two shots off in a charge...and the charge must be stopped in order to not be gored or maimed by claws, teeth or horns.

 

Airdale,

 

45 Colt is no joke! Good stuff fer sure.

1 hour ago, Airdale said:

Best explanation of meplat I've ever seen Norse, the Garrett website is now bookmarked. Also read the article on .45 Colt vs. .44 Mag and it is an eye opener. I haven't had a center fire single action since I sold my 7.5" Super Blackhawk .44 Mag back in the eighties, and had forgotten how easy on the hands they are in recoil. Will have to corner one of the cowboy action shooters at the range and try out a .45 to see if it bothers my paws too much. If that works, something like a 4 5/8" .45 Ruger may be added to the armory for mountain carry. Thanks much for that link.

 

Mine is 44, but they make it in 45 as well.

 

http://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=RUKRBN-45X

[MIB]

Mine is this:

 

http://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=RUKRBS-6-454

 

I've been packing it back where those "roars" I mention come from.   It torques the wrists pretty hard but the impact on the hand is less than what I've been backpacking with for the past few years.

 

http://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=SM163414

 

A mere 26.7 ounces of full throttle 250 grain .44 magnum is **vicious** .. kills on both ends, as they say.   The .454 hits vastly harder and while it torques the wrists more, it doesn't actually hurt the way the light .44 does.

 

MIB

[gigantor]

What do you guys think of a Glock 10mm?

[BigTreeWalker]

42 minutes ago, MIB said:

Mine is this:

 

http://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=RUKRBS-6-454

 

I've been packing it back where those "roars" I mention come from.   It torques the wrists pretty hard but the impact on the hand is less than what I've been backpacking with for the past few years.

 

http://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=SM163414

 

A mere 26.7 ounces of full throttle 250 grain .44 magnum is **vicious** .. kills on both ends, as they say.   The .454 hits vastly harder and while it torques the wrists more, it doesn't actually hurt the way the light .44 does.

 

MIB

Been eyeing those 5 shot 454`s for a while. You can use heavy 45 colt in them as well for a little less recoil. Nice guns. 

[norseman]

1 hour ago, gigantor said:

What do you guys think of a Glock 10mm?

 

Im iffy on a polymer gun holding 40,000 cup. Ive heard horror stories too.

 

But my son n law converted one to a 460 rowland, and still has all his fingers...