Sierra Shooting from A-Z

[Guest can]

Derekfoot I appreciate your responses. Do you think you could have been duped by the shooter and others or are you completely confident that could not be the case. What I'm seeing here is a trainwreck about to happen. I can't even imagine a scenario where this turns out to be a true story, and a true "bigfoot steak"

I hope you can even find humor in this if nothing else. I'm sorry that I can't take your assertions seriously about this bigfoot steak business.

[Guest]

Can, I find humor in everything!! You have to laugh, it keeps you sane. I completely understand people having a hard time believing this. It's a tough one to swallow for sure. It's a little easier for me to understand and believe because I know more about it than anyone. I also know the results of the DNA testing. Read into that what you will.

When this all boils down, these are the facts. We are a research team. We have submitted samples to this study for testing, like many other research teams and individuals. We have high hopes on the results. That just about sums it up. The Olympic Project is a deep field of quality researchers, with an emphasis on game camera work. This DNA study is obviously very important and could hopefully someday help with species verification and maybe, hopefully protection depending on how it's received. When it comes to Justins story, I believe him. Could I be wrong, of coarse I could, but I don't think so. But if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. God knows I've been wrong about things before in my life. No matter what this study shows we will continue our research with our heads high. We are looking very forward to the end of this study, but we're not basing our hopes and dreams on the forthcoming results. We are in the process of trying to build the most effective research team we can.

DR

[Guest]

Derek, so I have a couple more questions for ya. I know they may sound somewhat redundant but I always have a valid reason in the way I ask.

With respect to your saying "I know the results of the DNA testing." Does this mean that you have been told by Dr. Ketchum exactly what the results of the Sierra DNA sample is? What I mean is, is what you have been told at a level "we found human dna on the surface". I ask this so as to rule out possibility of surface contamination on the sample. Or is it "we extracted from within the sample these results..." I raise this because 'depending', your interpretation of what Ketchum means could be two different things. You also reveal some potential of doubt in your second paragraph above and so I have to wonder 'why?'.

I'd also like to point out, and not to infer this is the case here, but I believe that when a scientist is conducting any form of thorough analyses, especially one as politically charged and potentially debatable as this subject is, it is critical to demonstrate within a study that false specimens were also submitted and subsequently discounted. This is a welcome part of any work because it demonstrates that a scientist isn't positively identifying everything that comes along. Every scientist worth a grain of salt would do this to show they are not just bias in their views and thus not after only the results they want. That said, every sample submitted to a study would be important to the study validity be it canid, primate or whatever, in order to show that the work is following proper protocol.

One more thing, and I've asked this once before, but as of this date have you actually read any of the thread that was originally at the Taxidermy site yet? I think you last said you read a few of the posts a few months ago. Off the public record, I'd be interested in knowing who started said thread and when. As I recall it ended up something like 65 pages or so.

[Guest]

All due respect Prag, I won't go here with you. I learned with the Skookum discussion that my words and meanings don't actually make it inside your head. I've tried very hard to converse with you in the past and It continually left me frustrated. I don't have the Knowledge or skills to speak intelligently about DNA testing and procedure, so I'm not going to try. I will say this though, she doe's know what she's doing, and we all have high hopes for the study.

DR

[gigantor]

... I saw that squatch as clear as you can ask for under the circumstances and I'm admittedly discouraged at times that realistically, it's unlikely I'll get an another opportunity like that again even now possessing a handheld thermal unit that has push-button recording ability.

So Bart, where is that video?

[Guest exnihilo]

He didn't have the recording model at the time. Surely you've seen his recreations already?

[Guest]

I read that thread on taxidermy.net. It existed.

[Guest slimwitless]

PragmaticTheorist, a cursory Google search will turn up the post by Justin that kicked off the thread titled, "If You Saw Bigfoot, Would You Shoot It?" It's an interesting read for sure. There are also references to the deleted thread elsewhere on Taxidermy.net and corroborating comments by long-time members there like George Roof (the person that reportedly intervened on Justin's behalf to remove the thread). The taxidermist that alerted Derek to the shooting is a member here. It's not that hard to figure out who he is. You could ask him about it yourself.

[Guest]

From a personal standpoint, I'll share with you that what eventually got me over the top into the 90% area of believing this event did in fact happen, was overhearing an intimate & detailed conversation between both Justin and the driver about "that day" under circumstances in which they had absolutely no possible way in hell of knowing I was eavesdropping on them...and I guarantee they still don't know when that was. I've also noted minor inconsistencies in their stories in which I'd absolutely expect from both stress & two different perspectives (and experiences, as you'll recall, they did get temporarily separated). The inconsistencies consist of minor details and "timing" based more on their perceptions, not "facts" or major details. If there wasn't minor deviations between their stories present, I'd be more concerned of their stories potentially having been rehearsed.

Hey Bart, I have a question about this. If when you were spying/eavesdropping on the guys and happened to overhear them talking about the event, say you heard them say something like, "I can't believe these guys are buying this horsebleep" or something else exposing a hoax, would you have blown this thing out of the water? You know, go to Derek, possible go public, and end the scam? How would you have approached it?

[Guest]

I agree arizonabigfoot, as a matter of fact,it was that thread that indirectly lead me here.

[Guest BartloJays]

Gigantor-

Unfortunately I was using an X200xp (L3) black and white handheld imager during my sighting, and at that time in our thermal research, our recording capability consisted of placing the imager on a bicycle helmet with eye viewers, simultaneously holding a 20 lb backpack in front of you with plug ins (proprietary & adapter cord) and dvr, battery etc.... you could imagine the depth perception balance issues we had trying to negotiate anything other then a highly kept trail or road on foot.

In early 2008, we were able to use the X200's (in one hand) with certain sony camcorders (other hand) that had the appropriate output with proprietary & adapter cords wrapped around your neck like a snake, recording through the camcorder. A little better, but both cumbersome and you'd give off significant "light," which I strongly believe is an obvious deterrent & major disadvantage. In late 2009, Wally H and I purchased the first batch of FLIR H-Series handheld units (consolidated with 320x240 res) with push button record ability & 2x amplifier. Apparently, as of last year, FLIR 30 hz camera units are no longer commercially available other then Gov/law enforcement agencies. Luckily, we're grandfathered in.... thank god.

I use an upgraded version of this unit today which I call "my precious" and that anyone who's been out with me would attest......doesn't leave my neck in the field when the sun goes down. Had I had the current unit with me that night in 2007 (didn't exist yet) there's no deterrent I could imagine getting in the way (gives off no light) of getting pretty damning thermal footage (32 yards in clear, everything north of its calves) that would've lasted much longer then my actual sighting did....remember, if you're familiar with my sighting, I took that imager off my eye while the subject was still in view in a frozen stealth position with its back to me.

If the subject and I both stood there together in our line of sight, assuming it was waiting for me to depart and not giveaway its position, there's no telling how much longer the encounter would've lasted. What sickens me other then losing the opportunity of a lifetime for footage, is everything I missed in the way of fast transitioning on the ground on all fours during the first half of the encounter as I can only recall the very distinct positioning in order. Some of the time it just moved too **** fast when it was down.

Because I wasn't happy with my own re-creation work attached to my report, a year and a half ago I had a very talented Canadian bigfoot artist (Brian Cundle) do a commemorative piece for me based off my detailed anatomical description and he got extremely close from my memory (small deviations in traps & arm length)

http://www.northamericanbigfoot.com/2010/09/brian-cundle.html

[Guest BartloJays]

Arizonabigfoot- That's a fantastic question with a very, very easy answer.

I would've been done IMMEDIATELY and told the boys to take a hike in person! I don't care what "her" results are, were or rumored to eventually be, I would've called Derek & Wally so fast I probably would've dropped my phone on the ground and pressure them to take public action ASAP or I was going to...period. And remember, at that time it wasn't "out" yet that I'd been involved as a primary confidant of the boys (I've never been associated with Melba).

I should add, Derek, Wally and I have had a very close relationship the last 4 yrs, Wally and I go back to early 2006....it's because of Wally (who purchased Cliff's thermal imager that I saw "it" with that night in 2007) that I personally wake up everyday since that fateful night with a smile on my face knowing it's just a matter of when, who, how and where.... not "if." Derek is like a brother and has been an important mentor to me in this field, as aside from Mionczynski, he's arguably the best experienced woodsman we have in this field and both him & Leiterman have made me a much more "rounded" researcher by helping me strengthen areas I was admittedly relatively raw in when I entered this field a decade ago.

They (Wally & Derek) both know exactly what I'm about and I certainly know what they're about and I don't think I would've even had to pressure either as both are decent, honest people who don't want any association with BS in this field. I don't want to put words in their respective mouths, but I really believe they would've took my word and reaction as gospel, (knowing me so well) cut their losses at that point and not looked back.

Fortunately though, the scenario you mentioned was the opposite which gives me a lot of hope, regardless of what "she" comes out with and I know if people knew the decisions Justin's made from behind the scenes the last 6 months, I don't think they'd parallel this incident with some of the other obviously ridiculous claimed shooting/body scenarios we've all had to endure being guilty of association of subject with... even though we knew they were a joke from the beginning.

As I've said, at the end of the day, Wally (for funding god bless him) & Derek (lead researcher in this case) have done their job to this point by accessing the Sierra Kills event for viability to the best of their experience & judgement, and provide the "expert" (in this case Melba, rather I like it or not) willing to do the necessary genome examination work on the evidence they've collected for her to process. It's unfortunate that this incident got legs so quick publicly as it puts the researchers into association perception (by interested parties) with every level of involvement even if they truly have no control once the evidence is turned over for processing.

[Guest]

Slim, a few us did quite a bit of searching Tax.net after this unraveled. We never were able to come up with much to substantiate what was supposed to be a very lengthy thread involving a death threat even. I can't recall the exact number of pages that were supposed to exist, but I seem to recall something like 60. Normally it would take a few months to accumulate that many pages even in a large forum. What you are referring to however was a single post that Justin made wasn't it? I have also read that it was posted about a month after the alleged shooting. Whether that is accurate of course is questionable too given Derek was in touch within two weeks of the shooting as well. But if it was 60 pages, then who started the actual thread before that and why would it be deleted in its entirety? Has anyone here actually read that 60 page thread? Not just the few alleged posts mind you. Or should I believe that 60 pages followed the single post being referenced? If that's the case, then surely Derekfoot and others would have read the thread if he was in touch only two weeks after the shooting. Derekfoot never confirmed anywhere I have seen that he had read that many pages of the alleged thread.

We only found one reasonable reference to the subject on the Tax site when we searched but it really didn't offer any corroboration actually. I would think there would have been more cross reference mentions in other threads for such a major event being broken. As far as more thread content made available on one particular unnamed blog, its hard to know what to believe there as well.

[Guest slimwitless]

It appears a few people here have read the thread. Maybe they can chime in with more detail. If you go to Taxidermy.net there's a thread with a title that suggests a play on the original, "If you saw a sasquatch and didn't have a camera". The first post asks, "Would you shoot it?" I'm paraphrasing but someone says, "Ask Smeja". Someone else asks, "What ever happened to Smeja's thread". The famous taxidermist states he's writing a book about the thread. Someone replies, "POOF its gone. It was a great thread on the subject and all, but a book?" All this was posted in May.

Now, I'm not sure why it matters whether the thread was sixty pages or six. I think it's pretty clear the story was revealed on taxidermy.net.

[Guest]

Back on my word to myself here, but why the hell not. Prag, you don't need to tell me what the flesh looks like sir, I've held it, smelled it and examined it. You know, I'd actually talk to you and answer all your questions if you didn't insinuate that It's my obligation to. I'm actually a really easy guy to get along with, you just rub me wrong. I'll take the high road here one more time so you don't have the satisfaction of feeling, oh that Randles is ducking my questions..lol. I only read a couple of pages of the tax thread. If memory serves that was because Justin only said a few things. I think most of the posts were from other people.

I've told you before with the really fun Skookum cast conversation we had, I wanted to make it available for any and everyone to look at and study. Rick Noll took possession of that cast when it left my house and I never got it back. I tried. If you don't believe me, contact John Green. He was at my house to, and he felt the same way I did. Call him, I dare ya. He wanted to make a copy and travel around the United states to many universitys, and I offered to help fund that effort. If you'd like to know why that didn't happen you should contact Rick Noll. And yes you're welcome for the pictures, sorry, they're the best I had. Don't for one second accuse me of trying to hide anything, because you'd be 100% wrong.

I say I believe Justin and you have some weird problem with that. I'm not even going to address that, It's ridicules. Ever believed anybody Prag? I have my reasons for believing him, is that alright with you? Could I be wrong? Yes. Do I think I'm wrong? No. I think that's pretty clear. No crystal ball in my possibles bag.

If you were a geneticist and you received a flesh sample, a sample that had some thickness to it, where would you extract DNA from? Hmmm, let me think. Me personally? I'd shoot for the middle of the sample, where contamination would not be a factor. That doesn't require a lot of brain power.

Am I being rude here, yes. Am I sorry, NO. If my tone is inappropriate then I apologize to mods, but not to you. You don't know me well enough judge me.

Arizonabigfoot, at this point in time, Bart has spent more time around Justin than I have. If Bart told me that he thought Justin was lying because of his actions or anything he overheard, I'd be out. I trust Bart with my life, and I don't say that lightly.

DR