norseman Posted May 11, 2020 Admin Share Posted May 11, 2020 2 hours ago, hiflier said: LOL, we all have them, I've got one going right now The paper describes how, and when, the NOTCH2NLA, plus the "B" and "C" variations, appeared in the primate evolutionary chain. They appeared AFTER the last split between early Humans and the Great Apes. What the paper is saying is that ONLY the Great Apes have the "old" version of the gene, and ONLY Humans have the new versions (A,B,C). Those "new" versions gave Humans gradually bigger brains and higher thinking. I contend that because Sasquatch is so primitive, with no fire and tools (or no tools better than Great Apes) then it will not have the NOTCH2NLA, B, and C genes that we Humans have. So that's what I'm proposing we look for: Either the Great Ape gene versions or the Human gene versions. If an e-DNA sample supposedly comes back as being Human contaminated, but it doesn't have the Human gene versions, then the sample is showing different primate. It HAS TO BE a different primate. What we SHOULDN'T find anywhere in North America are the Great Ape gene versions. But if for some chance we do, then AGAIN, it has to be a different primate, because I really doubt that we have Gorillas or Chimpanzees in our woods. Looking for Human NOTCH2NL gene versions in Human contaminated samples is probably the quickest, easiest test to run since we already have the Human genome in the GenBank for comparison. There is no possible way that a legit DNA lab CANNOT tell the difference between Human dna, Gorilla dna, Chimpanzee dna or a novel undiscovered species of upright walking primate dna. NONE. They can tell the difference between Humans, Neanderthals and Denisovan dna and then identify modern populations that still have a percentage of Neanderthal and Denisovan dna still in them. They can identity traits both good and bad that came from archaic cousins. Neanderthals-Autism, Diabetes, etc Denisovans-High altitude compatibility, etc They can tell the difference between Chimps and Bonobos, Siberian and Bengal Tigers, on and on. This is a stick a fork in it issue! Done! As far as the main topic? If you do not believe anything is out there? You don’t go look. And you certainly do not spend money on lab samples! This is why it’s a mute topic. Todd Disotell on the million dollar Bigfoot bounty? Does a great job showing people how to collect samples. Including catching mosquitoes to study the blood in their stomachs....very Jurrasic parkesque! E dna I’m sure is an up and coming game changer as well. The key to finding a low density, elusive population is to crunch the samples hardcore. Casting a wide net over promising habitat. Does Bigfoot get bitten by mosquitoes? Absolutely. So what are the odds that you can catch the mosquito that’s flying around with Bigfoot blood in its stomach? Really low. But you up the odds by dozens of researchers taking thousands of samples. At some point the winning lotto numbers are gonna pop up. Just takes cash. Or a lab willing to take the samples. Or start a undercover non profit for Lynx or Wolverines, an endangered animal that resides in the same habitat. With a back door agreement that any primate related dna gets a closer look too besides the target species of the study. Or just do what I do and pack a Bigfoot bashing capable caliber firearm every time you step off into the woods. Convince hundreds of buddies to do it? No lab fees. Just sweat, blood and fuel. I guess this is my problem with dna? I don’t know enough about it and I don’t know who to trust. Ketchum didn’t give me any warm feelings either. It’s beyond my control. You could be the best sample taker in the world and the lab could be screwing it up. And the worst part is you wouldn’t even know it. Especially E DNA. If I watch a Bigfoot take a poo in the woods? And I collect a sample? I would be suspicious if it came back as nothing or another animal. But just going around collecting dirt samples? How am I to know they are getting it wrong? In a shooter scenario? The shooter would control the “sample” from beginning to end. And it would be incontrovertible. Minus any black helicopters.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Huntster said: or a scientist, who would be a not-so-foolish fame seeker. Hmm, I wonder who that could be..... 57 minutes ago, norseman said: The tribes instantly come to mind. They spend a lot of money trying to restore lost habitat and fauna. Salmon, Sturgeon, Caribou, Lynx, Wolves, Griz, etc.... http://www.tribaltribune.com/news/article_0cbbc58e-d316-11e9-aec2-b73b8a2ae848.html Good call. 53 minutes ago, NatFoot said: We probably don't have gorillas or chimps in NA woods...but science would tell you that one must've escaped and that's why you got that result. Probably don't? In turn, you have made my argument for me as we. An escaped Gorilla or Chimp would be serious business and a public safety issue. If a DNA sample tested for a Great Ape loose in North America, how much do you think would be spent trying to find and capture it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, norseman said: There is no possible way that a legit DNA lab CANNOT tell the difference between Human dna, Gorilla dna, Chimpanzee dna or a novel undiscovered species of upright walking primate dna. NONE. They can tell the difference between Humans, Neanderthals and Denisovan dna and then identify modern populations that still have a percentage of Neanderthal and Denisovan dna still in them. They can identity traits both good and bad that came from archaic cousins. Neanderthals-Autism, Diabetes, etc Denisovans-High altitude compatibility, etc They can tell the difference between Chimps and Bonobos, Siberian and Bengal Tigers, on and on. This is a stick a fork in it issue! Done! As far as the main topic? If you do not believe anything is out there? You don’t go look. And you certainly do not spend money on lab samples! This is why it’s a mute topic. Todd Disotell on the million dollar Bigfoot bounty? Does a great job showing people how to collect samples. Including catching mosquitoes to study the blood in their stomachs....very Jurrasic parkesque! E dna I’m sure is an up and coming game changer as well. The key to finding a low density, elusive population is to crunch the samples hardcore. Casting a wide net over promising habitat. Does Bigfoot get bitten by mosquitoes? Absolutely. So what are the odds that you can catch the mosquito that’s flying around with Bigfoot blood in its stomach? Really low. But you up the odds by dozens of researchers taking thousands of samples. At some point the winning lotto numbers are gonna pop up. Just takes cash. Or a lab willing to take the samples. Or start a undercover non profit for Lynx or Wolverines, an endangered animal that resides in the same habitat. With a back door agreement that any primate related dna gets a closer look too besides the target species of the study. Or just do what I do and pack a Bigfoot bashing capable caliber firearm every time you step off into the woods. Convince hundreds of buddies to do it? No lab fees. Just sweat, blood and fuel. I guess this is my problem with dna? I don’t know enough about it and I don’t know who to trust. Ketchum didn’t give me any warm feelings either. It’s beyond my control. You could be the best sample taker in the world and the lab could be screwing it up. And the worst part is you wouldn’t even know it. Especially E DNA. If I watch a Bigfoot take a poo in the woods? And I collect a sample? I would be suspicious if it came back as nothing or another animal. But just going around collecting dirt samples? How am I to know they are getting it wrong? In a shooter scenario? The shooter would control the “sample” from beginning to end. And it would be incontrovertible. Minus any black helicopters.... I wish I could control the size and quantity of the upvote I gave you My only thought is regarding lab fees. Academia has funding for lab fees. Some universities will, for free, train, equip, and test samples and give back results to citizen scientists. But let's just consider the cost of lab fees. How much does it cost for guns, ammo, food, equipment, truck, trailer, horses an mules, from scratch or over time, to go on a two week hunt? How much does it cost a researcher for gear, trail camera, thermal imager, night vision, a side arm for protection, vehicle and whatever upgrades are made to it and so much more? Thousands, tens of thousands? Just playing devel's advocate here so nothing personal, Norseman. Just trying to put things financially into perspective. As far as the bolded in the quote? Believe me, I didn't know a lot about it either. But since the OP nest discovery I worked at educating myself. I brought that education here to the Forum. The science is valid and accurate. Just look at the list of animals and differentiation capabilities the technology is capable of as stated in the first part of your post. And the technology will work for showing the existence of a novel North American primate other that Human. Trust me, if for a second I didn't think so I would be on the same side of the fence with everyone else. It's has been through study that came to be on this side of it. Those two NOTCH2NL papers only came out two years ago so I don't expect what show to be common knowledge. That's why I brought what the papers were peered reviewed are telling us. Putting everything together. That was the key for why I'm going in the direction I've been going. The science says it can and will work for Sasquatch discovery. And Disotell WILL TEST good samples. He said so himself. He tested the OP nesting sight even though the samples were degraded more as a favor to Meldrum, but he tested them nonetheless. No the problem I have is that there's nothing on the internet about using the technology for finding the Bigfoot. I thought if I started this thread that someone might check and have better luck because I sure can't find anything, even as a speculative, what-if type article. It would seem the BFF is the only place that has, publicly anyway, brought it up. Beyond that there is no other public mention anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 47 minutes ago, hiflier said: Hmm, I wonder who that could be..... Several come to mind, but I doubt any of them would drop the coin to test just anything that was sent to them without good supporting evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted May 11, 2020 Admin Share Posted May 11, 2020 47 minutes ago, hiflier said: I wish I could control the size and quantity of the upvote I gave you My only thought is regarding lab fees. Academia has funding for lab fees. Some universities will, for free, train, equip, and test samples and give back results to citizen scientists. But let's just consider the cost of lab fees. How much does it cost for guns, ammo, food, equipment, truck, trailer, horses an mules, from scratch or over time, to go on a two week hunt? How much does it cost a researcher for gear, trail camera, thermal imager, night vision, a side arm for protection, vehicle and whatever upgrades are made to it and so much more? Thousands, tens of thousands? Just playing devel's advocate here so nothing personal, Norseman. Just trying to put things financially into perspective. As far as the bolded in the quote? Believe me, I didn't know a lot about it either. But since the OP nest discovery I worked at educating myself. I brought that education here to the Forum. The science is valid and accurate. Just look at the list of animals and differentiation capabilities the technology is capable of as stated in the first part of your post. And the technology will work for showing the existence of a novel North American primate other that Human. Trust me, if for a second I didn't think so I would be on the same side of the fence with everyone else. It's has been through study that came to be on this side of it. Those two NOTCH2NL papers only came out two years ago so I don't expect what show to be common knowledge. That's why I brought what the papers were peered reviewed are telling us. Putting everything together. That was the key for why I'm going in the direction I've been going. The science says it can and will work for Sasquatch discovery. And Disotell WILL TEST good samples. He said so himself. He tested the OP nesting sight even though the samples were degraded more as a favor to Meldrum, but he tested them nonetheless. No the problem I have is that there's nothing on the internet about using the technology for finding the Bigfoot. I thought if I started this thread that someone might check and have better luck because I sure can't find anything, even as a speculative, what-if type article. It would seem the BFF is the only place that has, publicly anyway, brought it up. Beyond that there is no other public mention anywhere. A couple of points. -For me personally? I’m out there regardless. I simply enjoy being in the woods. I’m phasing my mules out unfortunately. My back and my balance just isn’t what it used to be. But money for me isn’t the issue. My jet boat and 4 wheeler are long long since paid for. I’m gonna buy a pickup camper with a good bed in it. I can no longer sleep on the ground. That’s about it other than fuel. Everything else I already have. To start from scratch? Sure it’s expensive. But so is driving out and hiking around and getting samples.... And then lab fees on top of that? If it was cheap and easy it would already be done. -Disotell may test Meldrum’s samples? But I bet if you started sending him samples? They would either show back up RTS, return to sender, or a credit card auto pay packet would show up.... -As I said? Nothing is out there because very very few are doing it. It’s a expensive long shot. But if you can find a University willing to do the samples for free? That would be awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Huntster said: Several come to mind, but I doubt any of them would drop the coin to test just anything that was sent to them without good supporting evidence. Absolutely spot on. Heck, Disotell would run six samples from the OP without first making sure the $5,000 was in place beforehand. Problem was it took a year and a half for indiegogo to raise the cash. Biggest potential find of the century and that's how it went down. 1 hour ago, norseman said: -For me personally? I’m out there regardless. I simply enjoy being in the woods. And a lot of researchers are. For most, me included, just being out there is a big part of it. 1 hour ago, norseman said: I’m phasing my mules out unfortunately. My back and my balance just isn’t what it used to be And honestly, that's a sad thing to hear, because I know how much you enjoyed those expeditions. Always loved seeing the photos you posted And yeah, a willing university WOULD be awesome. I've had no success in that endeavor, but it isn't for lack of trying. Even had a two-hour face to face with a PhD last February. Everything's disappeared. I currently have emails out. All I am asking anyone for is an evaluation of whether or not the path I'm proposing is any good. And some of the recipients of those emails have worked with BF researchers in the past. Can you believe it? An evaluation only for the avenue I've been pursuing, and I can't get a response. I'll wager one of then is going to end up promoting the idea on their own and calling it theirs. If that happens, just remember, everyone heard it FIRST right here on the BFF, from your very own crackpot, me, ol' hiflier. I'd be a fool not to mention that I will want credit for the idea. I think I at least deserve that. Edited May 11, 2020 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 1 hour ago, hiflier said: ........Disotell would run six samples from the OP without first making sure the $5,000 was in place beforehand. Problem was it took a year and a half for indiegogo to raise the cash. Biggest potential find of the century and that's how it went down......... If I pay, I own, and that means even the knowledge of its existence. If the scientists are that skeptical or stingy, and if I had to pay them that kind of money to qualify the proof, I'd sit on it and let them watch the find of the century live in secrecy.........for the rest of their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted May 11, 2020 Admin Share Posted May 11, 2020 47 minutes ago, Huntster said: If I pay, I own, and that means even the knowledge of its existence. If the scientists are that skeptical or stingy, and if I had to pay them that kind of money to qualify the proof, I'd sit on it and let them watch the find of the century live in secrecy.........for the rest of their lives. But you would tell me right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBorn Posted May 11, 2020 Moderator Share Posted May 11, 2020 Well about of the cost to having the eDNA done is really not that much. The would be is matching the sequence to some thing in the data base. And we all know that there is no DNA sequence of a Sasquatch in the data bank that it can be match to. I picked this all up off this PDF about eDNA and the process. Here is the PDF: http://www.spygen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Environmental-DNA-review.pdf Now you cannot say that I am not actually looking into this since I truly have. The closest I have come to anything about of what you are talking about is what Dr. Meldrum Kechtum did on the samples she had. Well we all know the out come of what came from that. But heck I am on your side and have always been. There is a lot we can learn as the technology starts to get better the more chances we have of proving that these creatures are real with out bagging a body. The problem with eDNA is that you have to be specific to what you are looking for in the sample. If we tell the lab that we are looking for a bigfoot they may never find it since there is nothing to compare it too. With eDNA you have to be specific to what you are looking for and if it comes back as being human then they will call it contaminated. There is just nothing there that is going to scream out to them saying that it is BIgfoot. We have no idea if they are even close to being primate of the ape type. Since any sample that has been examine has screamed out Bigfoot. If it had we be hearing about it and so far we have not. It is like you have said @hiflier there is nothing out on the internet screaming about this creature being discovered. Or that they have found any new species through new techniques by gene sequencing like a bigfoot. If they have it or they would be screaming all over the place. My opinion is that if they were primate of the ape kind then they would have matched up some where in some lab. But because they have not matched up in some lab to a primate of the ape/chimp/orang type . Then this creature must not be in that gene pool and must fit in some where in the new species of Human. The ancient type of Human that has not be discovered and is living among us. Sure it sounds crazy but we are actually living with a live breathing cave man in a natural world that is not suppose to exist. That is very Si Fi in our world. There are movies made about icemen and caveman. Now we may have an actual iceman /caveman living in a modern world. Now we just need the proof. If I was a scientist I would be all over this trying to prove this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) Another good post, ShadowBorn. And it's great that you are looking into this stuff on your own. It's an important and rewarding step to take. The more I got into things the more interesting they became Sometimes I read papers a half dozen times. If I came across language and terms I didn't know I would look them up. And then I would go back and read paper or a paragraph again with a better understand. Using proper terms also helps when connecting with a scientist, should you be lucky enough to email or speak to one. As far as Human contaminated samples go, what I've been trying to do is work out how to convince a scientist to re-test the sample to see if there is a NOTCH2NL-B gene. That gene is the easiest to test for from what I have read and there already are protocols specifically designed for it so a new one doesn't have to be created. A scientist can actually purchase that kit on the internet. The funding would be covered by academia. There are also ready-made kits for each of the Great Apes as well. And, as you may guess, they're not cheap. That's why trying to get a university's zoology department on board is the best way to go. So far, it also seems to almost impossible. But I keep trying to find an open ear of someone who will listen. And BTW, the article you linked was from 2015 and has a lot of great info in it. Thanks. But I also have to say that during the last five years since, the technology as far as what it can find and do now has gotten even better and more precise. Today I fully trust the process's power and capability. Edited May 11, 2020 by hiflier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSA Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 (edited) So naturally I had to pit my obviously superior web searching skills against yours Hiflier. And of course I failed. You are correct. If there is information out there, it is not easy to find. To say the least. Here’s a suggestion though. I remember discussing this with you on the old thread on this topic and about the documentary of the recent Himalayan expedition to look for Yeti evidence. That was the first mention I had ever seen concerning eDNA, and it might have been for you too maybe? If you can locate that video, find out the identity of the female French researcher who brought that technology to the expedition. Find her, and where she is employed and you will have a substantial leg up. If you do, I know we can count on you to update us, and I look forward to hearing. Here’s a link: https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/factual/lost-kingdom-of-the-yeti-animal-planet/5130150.article Edited May 12, 2020 by WSA 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted May 12, 2020 Author Share Posted May 12, 2020 WSA, where the heck have you been? LOL. Yeah, the internet. Thanks for looking around. It is kinda strange there's no talk about the subject. Or as you say very hard to find. Deep web? Dark web? DEEP DARK web The video follow-up is a very enticing suggestion and I may take you up on it. NatGeo perhaps? I'll see if I can locate it. Thanks. Be well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSA Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Unavoidably detained by a rash of simultaneous appliance and plumbing issues...all caused by the Corona virus. I kid you not. When everyone is at home, using water 24/7 and every hour can be peak demand hour, your local water works tweaks the water pressure up. If your incoming Pressure Regulator Valve can handle that, fine. If not? It fails, and every weak spot in your system fails along with it. Word. But anyway, I digress. Animal Planet was the money behind that production. Here the grab from the channel's web site: We sent an eight-strong British and French crew into the Bhutanese wilderness with the aim of finding evidence – via eDNA (Environmental DNA) samples, footprints or camera trap footage – of the elusive Bhutanese Migo (Yeti). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 4 hours ago, norseman said: But you would tell me right? LOL! Of course I would. You wouldn't even be held to a NDA. But if you talked, everybody would think you're nuts. 2 minutes ago, WSA said: Unavoidably detained by a rash of simultaneous appliance and plumbing issues...all caused by the Corona virus. I kid you not........ I've been demolishing my master bathroom, lining up contractors, and buying materials. When I told my wife that I was going bear hunting, an argument ensued, and immediately after that she took a shower........which leaked into the garage downstairs. She hexed me. Witchcraft. I kid you not. I'm used to this. No, don't try the skeptic thing on me......... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted May 12, 2020 Author Share Posted May 12, 2020 16 minutes ago, WSA said: your local water works tweaks the water pressure up Hear ya. Before I retired I was responsible for opening up 150 homes in the spring. A third of those had the water drained for the winter season. When the plumber showed up sometime in April to "put the houses together" As soon as the water at the street was turned on and gradually let into the house lines things would happen. Kitchen sink sprayers sometimes became missiles. Valves had been known to blow drain caps. The town pressure had been boosted in anticipation of summer residents showing up and golf course irrigation etc.. It was to make sure that when all houses and golf course water usage was full up that the hydrants would still have ample pressure for fighting fires. Some of the older homes were the first to get turned on. They could be a LOT of fun sometimes if one wasn't careful. Thanks for finding that, I'll check it out. Huntster, plenty of bathroom upgrades under my belt. Except for my own. They weren't my favorite. The smaller they were the harder they were. I did a 5x6 one time and it almost killed me getting the fiberglass tub/shower enclosure installed. Like putting a size twelve foot into a size eight shoe. Took me a three days to get the axel grease off the door frame. J/K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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