trapper Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 20 minutes ago, norseman said: If you say so.... We have uncontested physical proof of bipedal ape men in the fossil record. “Bigfoot” like species existed in Earth’s past. The only mystery left to solve is two fold. Does it exist in the here and now? Does it exist or has it ever existed in N. America? If you would like to prove that demons or angels exist? Be my guest. But we don’t have any fossil evidence for them, Therefore when you stir them into the Bigfoot pot? It’s a hinderance and not a help. It isn’t the pot calling the kettle black. And it is “out there”. Sorry I only had one plus to give. So I found a interview I had not seen before. I get that you have this position. Keep it and try to prove it. I dont have any investment in how the bigfoot mystery turns out and will be happy with any result. For me the paranormal being, or being with paranormal abilities is the best explanation for all of the data that I can think of. I dont think any explanation that leaves out the paranomal aspect is even taking all of the data into account personally. Enough people are reporting this kind of phenomenon that I cannot personally account for it otherwise..
norseman Posted May 16, 2020 Admin Posted May 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, trapper said: I get that you have this position. Keep it and try to prove it. I dont have any investment in how the bigfoot mystery turns out and will be happy with any result. For me the paranormal being, or being with paranormal abilities is the best explanation for all of the data that I can think of. I dont think any explanation that leaves out the paranomal aspect is even taking all of the data into account personally. Enough people are reporting this kind of phenomenon that I cannot personally account for it otherwise.. So you must also believe in pixies, gnomes, mermaids, werewolves and vampires? Because people report seeing them as well? You do realize there is a lot of chaff that needs to be separated from the wheat concerning this subject, right?
trapper Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 8 hours ago, norseman said: So you must also believe in pixies, gnomes, mermaids, werewolves and vampires? Because people report seeing them as well? You do realize there is a lot of chaff that needs to be separated from the wheat concerning this subject, right? Pot. I don't think there is equal evidence for all of those things you mentioned nor is the sheer volume of accounts equal among those subjects. However if you are going to bring up gnomes and pixies (fairies) then yes there is a ton of that kind of phenomenon and I think there is something to it. I like to read old folk tails from that part of the world. The accounts from another age and a different culture are often astoundingly similar to what we experience over on this continent in nature and description. If anything reading those kinds of accounts from the past and comparing them to today's paranormal phenomenon only further confirms for me the reality of the phenomenon rather than suggesting its non existence. But you are really failing to understand or respond to my point for bringing up different forms for a phenomenon I am suggesting could all be related and really the same thing. If Jung is correct, and I think he is to some extent for sure, it does not matter if it is a fairy, a bigfoot, an orb or a UFO. They would all be manifestations of the one numinous force drawing from the collective unconscious of humanity. From this perspective you make the mistake of thinking of these phenomenon as separate rather than related or even the same. It is really humorous though to have you try to mock this idea when this is exactly the kind of mocking the close minded and ignorant use on people who think bigfoot is real..... Pot meet kettle...... 1 3 1
MIB Posted May 16, 2020 Moderator Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, trapper said: I think when people hear about Jung's theories on the paranormal they assume he is saying these beings are not physically present. This is not his take at all. You can have direct physical contact with a paranormal being that according to Jung is a fabrication of the collective unconscious mind projected by a numinous force of some incredibly intelligent and powerful kind. Imagine a force of infinite intelligence and power that has access to the minds of all human beings. How hard would it be for the total experience of bigfoot by all people who really have had encounters to be pulled from those minds and projected onto our reality? So far this theory best explains all the evidence at hand IMO. What is the repeatably testable evidence for the existence of such beings? 14 hours ago, trapper said: I dont think any explanation that leaves out the paranomal aspect is even taking all of the data into account personally. Paranormal / woo-woo is made of 2 components. There's 1) the stuff we don't know yet and 2) pure bovine excrement. If the thing is true and real, whether we know it yet or not, it is within our capacity to know. MIB Edited May 16, 2020 by MIB 1
Huntster Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 Actually, a werewolf might be a sasquatch colored with uneducated theories to explain the phenomenon. A mermaid might be a sea creature colored by the stories of even less educated, rough, tough, sex-starved, 18th Century sailors. Vampires? It's a matter of history that Vlad Dracula was much more bloodthirsty, murderous, and efficient than any story the completely uneducated people of the region and era could ever describe or Hollywood can even depict. Imagine a forest of 20,000 impaled humans rotting in the sun and feeding the birds. It was so utterly horrifying, it accomplished the desired effect; the Ottomans turned around and went home. A monstrous legend, created by reality, survived and evolved for centuries. Paranormal? Nope. Evolving stories/theories to describe an incredible reality? You bet...... 2
SWWASAS Posted May 16, 2020 BFF Patron Posted May 16, 2020 (edited) I think either science has missed the BF line of ancestors altogether or Gigantopithecus was misidentified at the onset. That very thing has happened very often, and gets more likely when all we have that defines that species is jaw and teeth fragments. Whatever their lineage, BF has a line of ancestors likely going back to someplace in common with man since both are presently bipedal. Speaking of that I had a thought this morning that made me laugh. . It would seem that modern humans have devolved. We went from a farming agrarian society with supermarkets shelves filled with plenty in a matter of two months to a hunter gatherer society searching our environment for simple things like meat, flour, sugar, and paper to wipe our ass. That sure was quick. Edited May 16, 2020 by SWWASAS 2
trapper Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 2 hours ago, MIB said: What is the repeatably testable evidence for the existence of such beings? Paranormal / woo-woo is made of 2 components. There's 1) the stuff we don't know yet and 2) pure bovine excrement. If the thing is true and real, whether we know it yet or not, it is within our capacity to know. MIB Our present level of scientific development is quite primitive and may remain so forever.. There are an increasing number of scientists who are saying that we will most likely never be able to thoroughly investigate the vast universe we live in. We are simply not intelligent enough to do so. The universe will always hold mystery. It is interesting to me that the sciences who seemed to so nearly take all mystery out of the world, are now the ones offering mystery back to us on a higher order. Faced with these facts of our existence in an incredibly complex universe, and the profound limits of our intelligence, and our ability to develop scientific tools for investigation, I feel that it is foolish and ignorant to only think about or believe what can be repeated under controled conditions. Much of any peoples direct experience would have to be denied under these conditions. Life doesnt fit this mold unfortunately and it is an arrogance and a bias of this age to try to make it so. We miss much under the false limits that we set in this way. However, limitations of our present scientific level of advancement and its possible permanence aside, we do allready have the capacity to experience and know things that scientific investigation cannot yet reveal. Our own senses have access to whole dimensions that our sciences do not and cannot access. It is wrong to think otherwise in my experience and a it is a present bias and over correction to more superstitious times. The pengulum must swing back towards the center. Anyway those are my thoughts on the subject in a nutshell with lots of caveats obviously. 1 2
norseman Posted May 17, 2020 Admin Posted May 17, 2020 8 hours ago, trapper said: Pot. I don't think there is equal evidence for all of those things you mentioned nor is the sheer volume of accounts equal among those subjects. However if you are going to bring up gnomes and pixies (fairies) then yes there is a ton of that kind of phenomenon and I think there is something to it. I like to read old folk tails from that part of the world. The accounts from another age and a different culture are often astoundingly similar to what we experience over on this continent in nature and description. If anything reading those kinds of accounts from the past and comparing them to today's paranormal phenomenon only further confirms for me the reality of the phenomenon rather than suggesting its non existence. But you are really failing to understand or respond to my point for bringing up different forms for a phenomenon I am suggesting could all be related and really the same thing. If Jung is correct, and I think he is to some extent for sure, it does not matter if it is a fairy, a bigfoot, an orb or a UFO. They would all be manifestations of the one numinous force drawing from the collective unconscious of humanity. From this perspective you make the mistake of thinking of these phenomenon as separate rather than related or even the same. It is really humorous though to have you try to mock this idea when this is exactly the kind of mocking the close minded and ignorant use on people who think bigfoot is real..... Pot meet kettle...... Well.... the skeptics and I agree on one simple fact. We need physical evidence to prove the beast real. Woo people come along and have a million crackpot theories as to why we don't have physical evidence. Shapeshifting Aliens Inter dimensional beings So on and and so forth..... So you take a mystery that hasn't been explained and add 10 more mysteries to it. Humans are prone to it. I get it. But for example, lightning is simply an atmospheric electrical charge. Same thing that powers your house. But 1500 years ago it was a giant Blonde guy in the sky that was pulled by two goats with a chariot flinging his war hammer around! I view it as a cop out. Hey. We dont know what X,Y or Z is.....so...... Aliens! Magic! Shaman spells! Whatever.... 1
hiflier Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) @trapper I think you are assuming that Humans will never themselves progress to a cognitive level that would allow for more understanding of the workings of things like our Universe. I mean, I can somewhat agree with your statement regarding "limitations of our present scientific level of advancement and its possible permanence". Somewhat. And what I'm going to say needs to be couched in more or less evolution: Genes mutate. It's what they do. It was gene mutation that separated hominids from Chimpanzees by creating copies of the NOTCH2NL gene which gave hominids increasing brain size and cognitive powers. It is those very genes that have gotten us scientifically to where we are today, which I think is fairly significant considering what we have accomplished technologically. But that isn't the whole story. Again, gees mutate, which means Nature isn't finished with us yet. Sometimes genes mutate through environmental forcing and I think science is part of that forcing dynamic. So. We're not done. This isn't the end of the line for Human brain power. Because the NOTCH2NL brain gene variations that we have may go on to create a situation where we create progenitor cells faster and in more abundance that we do now during fetal development. The ability to create more progenitor cells is what allowed Humans, in turn, to create more neurons. This increased progenitor cell process that Humans have is how we left the Great Apes way behind in the area of bigger brains and higher cognitive thinking. Having said that, I see no reason for Humans to not get even higher up the ladder in those things where we develop a deeper understanding of the natural world's physics and beyond. Humans have produced geniuses: Archimedes, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Tesla, Nash, and many others. It may happen that geniuses become the norm. I think we have many more now but most of them get chewed up in the machine and never get an opportunity to reach their potential. Who is to say how far we'll go (or not go) as a species. Edited May 17, 2020 by hiflier 1 1
trapper Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, hiflier said: @trapper I think you are assuming that Humans will never themselves progress to a cognitive level that would allow for more understanding of the workings of things like our Universe. I mean, I can somewhat agree with your statement regarding "limitations of our present scientific level of advancement and its possible permanence". Somewhat. And what I'm going to say needs to be couched in more or less evolution: Genes mutate. It's what they do. It was gene mutation that separated hominids from Chimpanzees by creating copies of the NOTCH2NL gene which gave hominids increasing brain size and cognitive powers. It is those very genes that have gotten us scientifically to where we are today, which I think is fairly significant considering what we have accomplished technologically. But that isn't the whole story. Again, gees mutate, which means Nature isn't finished with us yet. Sometimes genes mutate through environmental forcing and I think science is part of that forcing dynamic. So. We're not done. This isn't the end of the line for Human brain power. Because the NOTCH2NL brain gene variations that we have may go on to create a situation where we create progenitor cells faster and in more abundance that we do now during fetal development. The ability to create more progenitor cells is what allowed Humans, in turn, to create more neurons. This increased progenitor cell process that Humans have is how we left the Great Apes way behind in the area of bigger brains and higher cognitive thinking. Having said that, I see no reason for Humans to not get even higher up the ladder in those things where we develop a deeper understanding of the natural world's physics and beyond. Humans have produced geniuses: Archimedes, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Tesla, Nash, and many others. It may happen that geniuses become the norm. I think we have many more now but most of them get chewed up in the machine and never get an opportunity to reach their potential. Who is to say how far we'll go (or not go) as a species. Great points. I agree with this wholeheartedly as a possibility. Its just that barring some unforeseen leap, evolution progresses so slowly that for now and the next hundreds of thousands of years we are very likely to remain in the dark about many things. There are also many physical limitations that wont allow us to fully understand the universe. We just cant see far enough or small enough to investigate a lot. As a fan of Star Treck I have high hopes for much more, but understanding everything? I dont think that will happen for us. I do hold out great hope for humanity to, at some point, discover ways to investigate what is now called paranormal and also the spiritual. It would be a dream come true for scientific investigation to detect and identify many subtle energies that I and many others already know exist. But for now these dimensions are firmly out of our grasp. 1
hiflier Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 Good response. One of my follow ups would be that it has been, oh, roughly three to six million years since the NOTCH2NL mutated for hominid manifestation. So it may not BE tens of thousands of years before Humans experience that next evolutionary step. One can only hope that it happens before we kill ourselves off, or Nature does it for us. I foresee it not just as a dry evolutionary exercise but more as a richer Human experience that might have a healthy dose of altruism both for Humans as well as for out planet and the rest of the creatures that live here, INCLUDING our Hairy Friends in the woods if they live long enough to benefit from our improvement Of course it COULD help if we could determine the Wood Ape vs. hominid thing beforehand but it's going to take a lot more than what we are currently doing as researchers for that to happen.
trapper Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, norseman said: Well.... the skeptics and I agree on one simple fact. We need physical evidence to prove the beast real. Woo people come along and have a million crackpot theories as to why we don't have physical evidence. Shapeshifting Aliens Inter dimensional beings So on and and so forth..... So you take a mystery that hasn't been explained and add 10 more mysteries to it. Humans are prone to it. I get it. But for example, lightning is simply an atmospheric electrical charge. Same thing that powers your house. But 1500 years ago it was a giant Blonde guy in the sky that was pulled by two goats with a chariot flinging his war hammer around! I view it as a cop out. Hey. We dont know what X,Y or Z is.....so...... Aliens! Magic! Shaman spells! Whatever.... You can go on about crackpot theories all you want but you have done nothing at all to establish the necessity of your position. You are just being rude over and over again without saying anything important. I don't think denigrating others positions does anything to further discourse and in fact stands in the way of it. Edited May 17, 2020 by trapper blalbab 2
norseman Posted May 17, 2020 Admin Posted May 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, trapper said: You can go on about crackpot theories all you want but you have done nothing at all to establish the necessity of your position. You are just being rude over and over again without saying anything important. I don't think denigrating others positions does anything to further discourse and in fact stands in the way of it. Quite the contrary. Asking for proof is what separates fact from fiction. I’m sorry if you think that is rude. Either way? Paranormal wasn’t one of the selections on the poll. We are off topic. And I will bow out now. Take care and enjoy the forums! 1
trapper Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, norseman said: Quite the contrary. Asking for proof is what separates fact from fiction. I’m sorry if you think that is rude. Either way? Paranormal wasn’t one of the selections on the poll. We are off topic. And I will bow out now. Take care and enjoy the forums! Calling peoples ideas crackpot theories and then strawamaning them is absolutely rude. It is also dishonest as it mis-states positions. The fact is that paranormal activity is being increasingly associated with and experienced in the vicinity of Bigfoot and further reportedly bigfoot itself has been witnessed to posses paranormal abilities as a species. Not taking that into account is the definition of closed mindedness and is contrary to the scientific method. 2
hiflier Posted May 17, 2020 Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) trapper, may I say that science, by not taking an interest in this creature, in spite of its historical record, anecdotal or not, is running contrary to its own scientific method. There is trace evidence being collected even to this day and yet science remains mute. It comes down to the fact that WE are the last bastion when it comes to proving the creature real. And as much as this runs counter to what you've been saying, there is a level of impossibility for that proof if the creature is paranormal. I think there are two choices here for scientific discovery. Having the creature take a bullet, or spearheading a scientific program of e-DNA sampling and testing. I've been pushing for the sampling/testing angle. And then the are those who don't want discovery. I look at it this way, hominid or Wood Ape, something is happening out there. We have had more people in the forest in the past decade for various reasons than ever before. We should be buried up to our necks in PGF-type videos by now showing clear images of this creature. But we are not. Not even close. Something is going on that is more than just the creature moving into remote habitat and it worries me. Again, there are two choices for discovery. It's time we made a decision about which way to go and seriously stick to it. And with that I will move off the thread as well. Edited May 17, 2020 by hiflier
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