What Would Be The Ramifications Of Bigfoot Discovery

[hiflier]

Hi All, I looked through some of the archives using the keyword "ramification" and was led to some fairly old threads that mentioned the subject. Back then, even in BFF 2.0, the threads were riddled with ex- members and ex-skeptics. Since it is now 2020 and we have honed our skills as thinkers as well as having more field experience I thought beginning the discussion anew would bring things into a more current dialogue.

 

In the past there had been mentioned that public discovery would create a tremendous shake up in society's foundations. The chief ones being political, economic, religious, scientific and social which just about covers everything. So there's a lot of room for discussion if each criteria get broken down but, generally, the subject of what Sasquatch discovery could result in doesn't seem to have changed all that much. One thing to consider though during these current times, though, might be what would discovery do to a society that is experiencing a pandemic which has it own set of social, political and economic upheavals. Would a discovery of the existence of Sasquatch during this time be add fuel to the fire?

 

But first, maybe starting off with discovery occurring during a normal situation for now would be best? For myself, pandemic aside, I don't think the impact of Bigfoot discovery would be all that upsetting to a normal status quo. It would definitely change things but personally I think, though the find would be amazing,  people would go on with their lives with the usual: Mild curiosity with a healthy dose of skepticism over it more than likely being a "hoax"- at least for a while. Thoughts? 

[hiflier]

Okay, I'll start this off by stating something that a lot of members have chimed in on. And that is does the government know about this creature. Some of you are of the opinion that government doesn't care one way or the other whether or not Bigfoot exists. Some, including me, have said it doesn't seem possible that government wouldn't know about the existence of the creature. Considering the surveillance level of outfits like the Border Patrol and even more mundane groups like the ones that monitor migration patterns of things like ungulates, along with tagging bears and other animals like mountain lions and even wolves, it would seem difficult to think that Sasquatch is an unknown.

 

Agencies like USF&W, with their forensics lab in Ashland, Oregon (of all places!), and the Forestry Service, both state and federal, plus the BLM and the logging industry, coupled with various state and local agencies with their respective departments of natural resources, one could hardly hold onto the opinion that Sasquatch is an unknown quantity. And that all plays into "government" knowing but not caring? I think the government actually cares very much, but then, that leads right into why Bigfoot existence hasn't been made public. Does it exist, or does it not? Well, there are knowers here that claim that the creature is VERY real. Thousands of reports also suggest that the creature is real. Then what gives? And that returns the subject to what the ramifications would be should the public become aware that the Bigfoot is real. 

[Huntster]

Race/tribalism is among the most charged human issues in world history. Its ramifications go back to before recorded human history. Indeed, it already includes the past existence of sasquatches, whether or not they still currently exist, just like it did that of Neanderthals, Denisovans Hobbits, and all other human species. Extending race today to include other human species complicates the issue further in every way. On a world scale, it brings new meaning to the concept of "basic human rights". 

 

Recognizing that makes "discovery" among the most important human realizations in human history, on scale with landing on the moon and developing nuclear weapons. It changes everything, and for all time.

 

If sasquatches still exist, it is unfathomable to imagine that modern governments of nations like the United States, Canada, Russia, India, and China are not aware of it. Thus, if you believe that sasquatches currently exist, you are eventually forced to face and strongly consider that logical deduction.

 

Currently in North America, sasquatchery is dealt with very differently by the different levels of government. Local governments (county and city) tend to support sasquatchery in a carnival/festival spirit, and a little money is made. But there's more; local law enforcement (sheriff's, deputies, and city police) have a long history of official investigations, collection of evidence, and documenting reports, including their own sightings.

 

Immediately upon graduating from local to state/national government, which would be the levels of government which would politically negotiate and administer treaties with aboriginal peoples or administer an endangered species protection act over large areas of public lands, the entire atmosphere changes completely. Now a sasquatch researcher or citizen reporting an encounter faces quiet denial, condescension, or complete silence. No records of any kind are taken, maintained, or available for review. This is even dramatically different than in UFOlogy, which has seen hundreds of millions of public dollars spent by both the military and NASA in both responding to UFO reports and even scientific Searches for Extraterrestrial Intelligence.

 

Further, the acknowledgement of, negotiations with, and treaties with another human species would necessarily have to be an international effort, especially since these creatures appear to live in more than one nation. Moreover, the entire world government (United Nations) would be involved, not just those nations in which these primitive humans live. Their "basic human rights" would have to include emigration/immigration, among all other considerations.

 

So, it appears undeniable that IF sasquatches currently exist (or even existed in the recent century, but are now extinct), government is not particularly interested in discovery, and is likely discouraging discovery.

 

If true, is it wise to blindly attempt to achieve discovery? Will you be effectively blocked? Persecuted? Silenced?

 

 

[hiflier]

27 minutes ago, Huntster said:

So, it appears undeniable that IF sasquatches currently exist (or even existed in the recent century, but are now extinct), government is not particularly interested in discovery, and is likely discouraging discovery.

 

If true, is it wise to blindly attempt to achieve discovery? Will you be effectively blocked? Persecuted? Silenced?

 

First of all I can understand the local ramifications that you presented all the way to the global level. You laid out that argument very well, Huntster. But there's an issue that permeates your entire concept that may impact the reaction/resistance to public disclosure. And that issue is wrapped around whether or not Sasquatch would be officially considered a peoples. If it is only thought to be an animal, as in another Great Ape and NOT Human, then it would place the into a completely different category, side by side with the apes.

 

Different folks, of course, think one way or the other: Ape vs. Human, animal vs. people. And their reasons relate to general Sasquatch behavior with some seeing that behavior as being on the same level as Gorillas or Chimpanzees and others seeing their behavior lean more towards Human. This thread isn't for that double perception but a thread for discussing it wouldn't be out of the question?

 

But back on topic, whether Human or not, there have been stories, true or not, about people that have attempted, and may have even been close, to exposing the truth. Of, course those stories are supposed to be some kind of proof that the creatures are real and therefore any threats of exposure is portrayed as going against the wishes of government. The key words in the bolded part of the quote are "blindly attempt". Those words suggest an unawareness that one could run afoul of the powers that be in any efforts to arrive at the truth. But what if one IS aware? In this day and age where nothing gets by the "watchers" of society, being blocked, persecuted or silenced shouldn't be a concern if the creature is a myth, right? Is proving that it is a myth just as risky as proving that it's real? There's money on both sides of the coin that would be in jeopardy if EITHER condition regarding the truth was met.   

[Huntster]

1 hour ago, hiflier said:

.......there's an issue that permeates your entire concept that may impact the reaction/resistance to public disclosure. And that issue is wrapped around whether or not Sasquatch would be officially considered a peoples. If it is only thought to be an animal, as in another Great Ape and NOT Human, then it would place the into a completely different category, side by side with the apes.........

 

Leaving the rest of your post for later, I'd like to address this, because it's the most significant part of your response.

 

First, it's almost certain to be a hominin. The foot structure, bipedal posture, chattering language, and (most importantly) its ability to mate with us (Zana) makes it a done deal. However, if there is a mid-tarsal joint and sagital crest of any size, we're talking about enough structural variance to assign a different species within the Homo genus.

 

But even if it is a novel North American ape, you are still talking about an endangered species designation and rewrite of the natural history record that is no small potatoes. African apes are big politics, there and internationally. A North American bipedal ape would be bigger than that. Much bigger.

[hiflier]

24 minutes ago, Huntster said:

First, it's almost certain to be a hominin. The foot structure, bipedal posture....

 

Agreed, even with just the above two criteria. Also, add in the base of the thumb being closer to the palm (more opposable), closer than a Chimp's thumb apparently is?

 

And also agree on the flip side of the genus coin regarding sagittal crests and mid-tarsal breaks, although there are Humans with mid-tarsal breaks as well? And there is no question Natural History would be in for a surprise awakening. A very BIG surprise because when it comes to ramifications of this type of discovery  just in North America, there would be no equal. Makes me wonder what would have happened if discovery had been made in the 1800's  Or should I say, PROOF of discovery. I shudder to think....

Edited May 25, 2020 by hiflier

[Huntster]

34 minutes ago, hiflier said:

.......Makes me wonder what would have happened if discovery had been made in the 1800's  Or should I say, PROOF of discovery. I shudder to think....

 

The uproar in North America over the discovery of the gorilla in the mid 1850's, and then Charles Darwin publishing On the Origin of Species in 1859 and The Descent of Man in 1871, was in itself like a bombshell.

 

Another existing human species would be almost as Earth shattering as extraterrestrial visitors.

[hiflier]

And this thread is to explore how Earth-shattering such a discovery would be. You mentioned Natural history so let's delve into that for starters. Science, to include vertebrate zoology, anthropology, maybe paleoanthropology, biology- to include macro- and micro-, primatology, evolutionary history as far as phylogenetics goes as in where in the Tree of Life the creature belongs simply by it's physical shape, psychology/animal behavior and a few other disciplines I'm sure. That's not even touching on politics, sociology and the rest. So, Natural Science?

 

Humans love to pigeon hole things because new categories are stressful. So plugging Bigfoot into the current living model will be the first order of business. Pretty sure what will be found out is that the Bigfoot will be the attempt to fit the square peg into a bunch of round holes. The thing of it is, different aspects of the creature will fit one hole but other aspects of the creature won't. After a few tries science will have to conclude new species (OF COURSE!) But the real issue is that none of those trials and investigations would be made public. Because science, in order to save face, will want their ducks in a row when they break the news so that they can remain King of the Hill in the eyes of the public.

 

It kind of brings us to TPTB not wanting public exposure. Because even as the creature is being studied, if it hasn't been already, Government will be working out how to keep the discovery under wraps. This is about revenue. It's really about potentially LOST revenue. Is it time yet for the list of different entities, public, private, state and federal, that push revenue into government coffers? The list would be of resource types that are harvested, the industries that cater to academic field studies, the industries that cater to tourism, and the industries that cater to recreational activities just to name a few. Industries that might be mildly to severely should the Bigfoot become publicly real.

 

In a way, Huntster, this is like doing science. It's an in-depth study on the total impact of Sasquatch discovery by breaking it down into the issue's component parts. It's actually building the case for why public disclosure would be, or could be, strongly resisted.

[Huntster]

2 hours ago, hiflier said:

........You mentioned Natural history so let's delve into that for starters. Science, to include vertebrate zoology, anthropology, maybe paleoanthropology, biology- to include macro- and micro-, primatology, evolutionary history as far as phylogenetics goes as in where in the Tree of Life the creature belongs simply by it's physical shape, psychology/animal behavior and a few other disciplines I'm sure. That's not even touching on politics, sociology and the rest. So, Natural Science?.......

 

The natural science aspect is what everyone seems to be interested in. It will be utterly fascinating after discovery, but keeping my eyes on the pea and shuffling shells:

 

1) IF these creatures exist, at least five major national governments know it, and......

 

2) If these governments know they exist they have studied them enough to know what they are, and.........

 

3) These government have either discussed this situation at some point, or simply have the same common approach to the situation, or both, and........

 

4) The behavior of these governments regarding the downplay of these creatures existence and discouragement of discovery strongly leads me to believe that it is because these creatures are human, not pongid.

 

Thus, the most important ramifications regarding discovery of these creatures will be:

 

1) Their homelands. This would go hand in hand with their hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Reservations, movement corridors, and foodstuff guarantees, even if not made to them in treaty, will have to be recognized by governments on their behalf.

 

2) Representation within world government. Until such time as effective communication is established with these creatures and they organize their own representation with the United Nations and their history national governments, representatives would have to be somehow appointed to them.

 

Now, this might seem wild to those reading it, but these (or similar) things  are clearly what would have to happen after discovery if they are hominin.

 

Isn't it becoming more and more obvious why government(s) currently might want to discourage discovery?

Edited May 25, 2020 by Huntster

[BC witness]

Good thread and good discussion, gentlemen. I have nothing to add right now, but will follow with interest.

[wiiawiwb]

Formal discovery would be a absolute disaster on so many levels.

 

I've been out in the woods a lot lately and in order to get to some of my destinations I have to backpack part of the way on recognized trails. Lots of families out with their very young kids. Does anyone really think that mom is going to skip along the trail with kiddies in tow if she knew she had now stepped into the area where King Kong really lives? The family ventures into the forest would all but disappear. They would be replaced by the knuckleheads who gotta to git me one of them-thar squatches. The forest would sound like your local shooting range.

 

Then, of course, the government would step in and have to control vast swaths of land in every respect. Forget life as you knew it as it relates to recreating in the forest. It would no longer exist. That, and the unending predation of sasquatches that would commence, are the reasons I want things to stay exactly the way they are.

 

The formal recognition of sasquatches will spell their ultimate demise.

 

 

[SWWASAS]

One thing and a couple of events have suggested to me that if the existence of BF is known, and they become a trophy kill for some segment of our society,  BF will not simply let it quietly happen.    They are near human enough that they will retaliate.  No one armed or not would be safe in the woods or anyplace BF are close to.   I wonder if some of the missing hunters are missing because they took a shot at BF.   The government may even know how BF reacts,  and decided that not admitting existence is the best course to take.  

[hiflier]

12 hours ago, Huntster said:

1) IF these creatures exist, at least five major national governments know it, and......

 

2) If these governments know they exist they have studied them enough to know what they are, and.........

 

3) These government have either discussed this situation at some point, or simply have the same common approach to the situation, or both, and........

 

I agree, depending the same "IF".

 

12 hours ago, Huntster said:

4) The behavior of these governments regarding the downplay of these creatures existence and discouragement of discovery strongly leads me to believe that it is because these creatures are human, not pongid.

 

I think you and I already know how and why we differ in this. Yes, hominin, and yes, not Pongid. But hominin is also Chimpanzee, not just Human. I think it's obvious from report descriptions that the creature, at least physically is way past Chimpanzee as far as primate evolution goes. Even further past Gorilla, and farthest past in time from Orangutan. But here's where you and I are on different paths, I don't think Sasquatch ever quite made it to Human. Physically it's very close, but mentally it displays behavior much deeper into the ape camp. Building nests, throwing rocks, fully haired, chasing down deer and eating them raw, wintering without clothing or fire? And these are only the major attributes.

 

My take on any government need to keep silent and discourage, or actively prevent (a subject in and of itself!), discovery is completely wrapped up in greed. For instance, the silence of the Washington State Department of Natural Resources even though they sent two of their agents to the Olympic Peninsula nest discovery. No mention of them after that one time by the Olympic Project. And no response after five emails to the commissioner. Silence across the board. Silence even if it was determined to be undocumented bear behavior. And the email thing isn't hearsay, they were my emai

 

5 hours ago, wiiawiwb said:

That, and the unending predation of sasquatches that would commence, are the reasons I want things to stay exactly the way they are.

 

The formal recognition of sasquatches will spell their ultimate demise.

 

A bit of conjecture there, but probably no more than my own feeble attempts to paint the picture regarding public disclosure. And a lot of what you said about setting aside vast swaths of habitat one might hope would be expected, but would it actually happen? Or would there be official workarounds to maintain the flow of resources? Would everything come to a standstill in that situation until any workarounds become law? What would Game Warden LEOs do or react if they all of a sudden were informed that Sasquatch is a real creature in their jurisdictions? Do Game Wardens already know about the creature's reality and, if so, for how long? Do you think it unlikely that they do NOT know? Do you think they find unusual deer kills or footprints deep in remote places like our BF researchers do? Or even nest structures that are not documented bear behavior?

Edited May 25, 2020 by hiflier

[Huntster]

1 hour ago, hiflier said:

........I think you and I already know how and why we differ in this. Yes, hominin, and yes, not Pongid. But hominin is also Chimpanzee, not just Human. I think it's obvious from report descriptions that the creature, at least physically is way past Chimpanzee as far as primate evolution goes. Even further past Gorilla, and farthest past in time from Orangutan. But here's where you and I are on different paths, I don't think Sasquatch ever quite made it to Human. Physically it's very close, but mentally it displays behavior much deeper into the ape camp. Building nests, throwing rocks, fully haired, chasing down deer and eating them raw, wintering without clothing or fire? And these are only the major attributes.........

 

Sykes nailed this in Nature of the Beast with his dna study on Zana's progeny:  if she can mate with Homo sapien men, she's human. But being human does NOT necessarily mean she's Homo sapien.

 

Imagine if a village of primitive people were discovered in Siberia who, when tested, were determined to be 95% Neanderthal. How would the UN respond? What kind of pressure would be put on the Russian government?

 

Change that location from Siberia to western China..........or Tibet......

 

Quote

........My take on any government need to keep silent and discourage, or actively prevent (a subject in and of itself!), discovery is completely wrapped up in greed. For instance, the silence of the Washington State Department of Natural Resources even though they sent two of their agents to the Olympic Peninsula nest discovery. No mention of them after that one time by the Olympic Project. And no response after five emails to the commissioner. Silence across the board. Silence even if it was determined to be undocumented bear behavior. And the email thing isn't hearsay, they were my emai......

 

That official silence us exactly what happened with the late 1980's Eric Muench nest find on Prince of Wales Island in Alaska in 1988. After reporting the find to the Native Alaska corporation land managers who had hired him to survey their timber, the land managers brought a state Division of Forestry forester and an Alaska Department of Fish and Game habitat biologist to the site. Hair and stool samples were taken and photographed shot. The event officially then drops off the face of the Earth. It is recorded by Robert Alley in Raincoast Sasquatch with plenty of private witnesses.

 

Ditto the official position regarding the internationally well known Patterson/Gimlin filming. To this day, some 53 years after the event, there is still not a peep from any agency of the state of California, the Department of the Interior, Department of Agriculture, or United States Forest Service. 

 

Not a peep.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Huntster

[hiflier]

Yes, odd isn't it? Especially when 20-50 million was spent looking for the thought-to-be-extinct (probably is) Ivory-billed Woodpecker based on a blurry photo. And that blurry photo was supposedly taken of the bird AFTER it hadn't been seen for eighty years. If that photo wasn't a hoax then there had to have been a sustainable population the entire eighty years or else.......no bird.

 

So, Sasquatch. Sustainable population? One would think so since there are knowers even here on the Forum. And yet, officially anyway, a complete, or nearly complete, non addressing of the subject- one way or another. The "one way or another" brings up a matter which seems strangly expected on the surface but probably not in reality. It seems expected that government would interfere, or actively try to stop, research aimed at disclosure. Claimed ruining of scientific reputations, or other kinds of pressures brought to bear on anyone, or any institution, for investigating the Bigfoot subject scientifically or otherwise. Which I assume is meant to eliminate the very ramifications we are discussing.

 

Shall we move on from Natural Science? Not that I'm ready to but there is a lot of ground to cover still. Such as any impacts on religious or philosophical grounds? Some say having another hominin on the block could tip the scales on current religious party lines regarding Man's place on this planet. But then a single visit by a UFO full of ET's or their robots would do the same thing? But in the case of the Bigfoots reality, we could have all it would take to shake things up within the various denominations of the world. Personally I think religions will work out a way to maintain Man's position as the Alpha lord over the animal kingdom by simply promoting Sasquatch as a dumb ape. Marvelous yes, but dumb and more than likely a creature without a soul.

 

So while public BF discovery would be amazing, and initially a shock to many, I doubt it would take religions long to stick the thing in with the other Great Apes and re-secure their positions of power and influence. Sure, there may be a shake-up at first, and some silence, while the powers await scientific investigation (no doubt putting pressure in the scientific community) but in the end Man will maintain his place in the hierarchies of life and the Bigfoots will be looked down upon as inferior and the suddenly newest non-threat to the self-imposed vaulted position of us mighty Humans.    

Edited May 25, 2020 by hiflier