Homo Sapiens eyes - Dogs - Extinction of Neanderthal

[norseman]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-wolves-really-became-dogs-180970014/

 

Scientists cannot agree on the timing, either. Last summer, research reported in Nature Communications pushed likely dates for domestication further back into the past, suggesting that dogs were domesticated just once at least 20,000 but likely closer to 40,000 years ago.

 

 

Comparing these genomes with many wolves and modern dog breeds suggested that dogs were domesticated in Asia, at least 14,000 years ago, and their lineages split some 14,000 to 6,400 years ago into East Asian and Western Eurasian dogs ,

But because dog fossils apparently older than these dates have been found in Europe, the authors theorize that wolves may have been domesticated twice, though the European branch didn’t survive to contribute much to today’s dogs. 

 

 

 

[Henry Stevens]

On 2/28/2021 at 11:27 AM, norseman said:

Its your point that Southern cousins can reproduce at faster rates than northern cousins. Which by the way is completely wrong in the genus Homo. And looks to be wrong in canids and felines as well. So I have given you examples of Dingos vs Wolves which are closely related and South American cougars and North American cougars which are the same species.

 

They have the same reproductive rates!

 

What does Paleo dogs have to do with modern dogs? The domestication of the Wolf could have happened many times in many places. The family of paleo dogs that helped humans out hunt thals? Could have also gone extinct.

 

Either way it’s a theory that has a lot more weight than your theory that humans just had more babies than thals did because they came from the south. Humans it appears domesticated dogs at one point around the same time as thal populations were collapsing. Dogs could represent the technology niche that thals simply could not cope with.

 

Again I suggest that if want to explore your theory about southern vs northern reproduction rates? Go start your own thread to discuss it.

 

 

 

No, your theory was discredited circa 1997 when it was found all dogs originated in Asia 15,000 years ago.  Paleo dogs were a once off thing like you say.  Three Paleo dogs for the entire Middle and Upper Paleolithic in the Dordogne river valley is no proof they were ever widespread.  The Upper Paleolithic alone covered more time than has elapsed since the Upper Paleolithic ended.  It would take a huge dog population to impact Neanderthals, spreading from Ireland to Pakistan.  They would have to appear in the correct time frame.  You would have to explain why something as valuable as killer dogs which somehow killed the Neanderthals then turned around and went extinct for another 15,000 years.  You would have to explain the mechanism by which caused this.

 

Maybe you don't know this but in the Dordogne region, modern humans inhabited the plains above the river valley and only gradually, over centuries, encroached in the valley itself where the Neanderthals held sway.  They were functioning in two separate biomes for the most part.  Apparently, this revolved around ownership of the rock shelters themselves.

 

Dordogne River valley is the most excavated area for Middle and Upper Paleolithic cultures in the world.  Marcellin Boule began in the 19th Century and dug up every rock shelter he could find.  Francois Bordres did the same in the 1950s to 1970s.  Then the Americans James Sackett and Louis and Sally Binford took over.  There really is not much untouched left.  

 

Your theory does not put dogs in association with Neanderthals.  It does not document a population of dogs which was widespread and extensive enough to impact Neanderthals (or anything else).  You theory is a dead end as far as modern dogs are concerned. 

 

Somehow, your only proof revolves around the existence of these dogs themselves as if their existence magically proves other things. 

 

I have a better one for you.  During Magdalenian times in this same area, cave areas set aside, looking like enclosures, were found.  Reindeer were a staple in Magdalenian times.  Does that mean the Magdalenians domesticated reindeer?  There is more proof there than in your theory.

 

Something else you missed:  how do you distinguish a dog from a wolf with only bones?  Do you know?  I know, and your sources, the archaeologists, have not demonstrated that threshold.  Dogs and wolves get mixed up all the time.  There were "short faced wolves" in Alaska which Dr. Jennifer Leonard recently DNA tested and turned out to be dogs.  Wolves have a huge size variation, 175 pounds for Mackenzie River area in Canada to 70 pounds for wolves in eastern Greenland.  Positive ID is only with the skull or DNA in the time frame under study.

 

You have a long, long way to go.

 

 

 

 

[norseman]

52 minutes ago, Henry Stevens said:

 

No, your theory was discredited circa 1997 when it was found all dogs originated in Asia 15,000 years ago.  Paleo dogs were a once off thing like you say.  Three Paleo dogs for the entire Middle and Upper Paleolithic in the Dordogne river valley is no proof they were ever widespread.  The Upper Paleolithic alone covered more time than has elapsed since the Upper Paleolithic ended.  It would take a huge dog population to impact Neanderthals, spreading from Ireland to Pakistan.  They would have to appear in the correct time frame.  You would have to explain why something as valuable as killer dogs which somehow killed the Neanderthals then turned around and went extinct for another 15,000 years.  You would have to explain the mechanism by which caused this.

 

Maybe you don't know this but in the Dordogne region, modern humans inhabited the plains above the river valley and only gradually, over centuries, encroached in the valley itself where the Neanderthals held sway.  They were functioning in two separate biomes for the most part.  Apparently, this revolved around ownership of the rock shelters themselves.

 

Dordogne River valley is the most excavated area for Middle and Upper Paleolithic cultures in the world.  Marcellin Boule began in the 19th Century and dug up every rock shelter he could find.  Francois Bordres did the same in the 1950s to 1970s.  Then the Americans James Sackett and Louis and Sally Binford took over.  There really is not much untouched left.  

 

Your theory does not put dogs in association with Neanderthals.  It does not document a population of dogs which was widespread and extensive enough to impact Neanderthals (or anything else).  You theory is a dead end as far as modern dogs are concerned. 

 

Somehow, your only proof revolves around the existence of these dogs themselves as if their existence magically proves other things. 

 

I have a better one for you.  During Magdalenian times in this same area, cave areas set aside, looking like enclosures, were found.  Reindeer were a staple in Magdalenian times.  Does that mean the Magdalenians domesticated reindeer?  There is more proof there than in your theory.

 

Something else you missed:  how do you distinguish a dog from a wolf with only bones?  Do you know?  I know, and your sources, the archaeologists, have not demonstrated that threshold.  Dogs and wolves get mixed up all the time.  There were "short faced wolves" in Alaska which Dr. Jennifer Leonard recently DNA tested and turned out to be dogs.  Wolves have a huge size variation, 175 pounds for Mackenzie River area in Canada to 70 pounds for wolves in eastern Greenland.  Positive ID is only with the skull or DNA in the time frame under study.

 

You have a long, long way to go.

 

 

 

 

It’s not me that is bringing outdated facts to the debate. It’s you. 1997? That’s a long time ago. Look at my article dates..... 2021.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2264329-humans-may-have-domesticated-dogs-by-accident-by-sharing-excess-meat/

 

DNA supports a split between Wolves and Dogs up to 40,000 years ago. No bone morphology needed.

 

Also no one is claiming that the dogs directly killed Neanderthals.....LOL. They are not suggesting a mass Cujo event with Neanderthal clans with their throats ripped out laying around the campfire. 

 

Dogs were another tool, like the throwing stick and dart, that gave human hunters the edge over Neanderthal hunters. And incrementally over many thousands of years that human success ended in tragedy for the Neanderthals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Henry Stevens]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:13 AM, norseman said:

It’s not me that is bringing outdated facts to the debate. It’s you. 1997? That’s a long time ago. Look at my article dates..... 2021.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2264329-humans-may-have-domesticated-dogs-by-accident-by-sharing-excess-meat/

 

DNA supports a split between Wolves and Dogs up to 40,000 years ago. No bone morphology needed.

 

Also no one is claiming that the dogs directly killed Neanderthals.....LOL. They are not suggesting a mass Cujo event with Neanderthal clans with their throats ripped out laying around the campfire. 

 

Dogs were another tool, like the throwing stick and dart, that gave human hunters the edge over Neanderthal hunters. And incrementally over many thousands of years that human success ended in tragedy for the Neanderthals.

 

 

Yeah, I missed that link where you showed paleo-dogs throughout the Neanderthal range.  You know, what would be necessary for any association on any level between Neanderthals and dogs.  Pleases explain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[norseman]

43 minutes ago, Henry Stevens said:

 

There was no association between Neanderthals and Dogs..... There was association between Dogs and Humans. 🤔

 

We know now that association is at least 40,000 years old. Which coincides with the extinction of Neanderthals in the fossil record.

 

What part are you not grasping?

[Henry Stevens]

On 3/5/2021 at 3:04 PM, norseman said:

There was no association between Neanderthals and Dogs..... There was association between Dogs and Humans. 🤔

 

We know now that association is at least 40,000 years old. Which coincides with the extinction of Neanderthals in the fossil record.

 

What part are you not grasping?

 

You forgot the link.  There is no association between UP humans and dogs.  You have three maybe-dogs, no DNA.  You forgot the link showing any widespread association between UP humans and dogs over Eurasia at that time.  You are right, there is no association between dogs and Neanderthals which was your theory.  They lived at vastly different times and vastly different places.  Modern dogs are 15, 000 years old, period.  Paleo dogs are a maybe.  If they ever were, they promptly went out of existence. There is no evidence for them outside one French river valley.  This means not in the next French river valley, not in a Spanish river valley, not in a German river valley, not in an English river valley (there was no English Channel then), not in the Ukraine, not in the Near East, not in the Far East, not in Southern Asia.  There is no evidence for them over the range of Aurignacian culture or Perigordian culture, Grevettian culture or Soutrean culture, or Magdelenian culture.  No evidence for them in the Mesolithic.  There is only spotty evidence for them in the Neolithic and find some Neolithic dogs in Europe while you are looking.  Your reasoning is if a dog was present, there is a causal relationship for anything or everything---anything you want to make up.  Are dogs responsible for agriculture?  Are dogs responsible for the wheel? 

 

Your argument died in 1997 as I mentioned with the sequencing of mtDNA for dogs at UCLA.  It wasn't even sophisticated by our standards now.  Apply the molecular clock and it is 15,000 years old.  Any previous dogs are an extreme theory which, as Carl Sagan said, requires extreme proof.  You have none for any of your changing positions.

 

Norseman, when you have some proof linking dogs to Neanderthal extinctions or widespread dogs in the Upper Paleolithic, PM me.  Otherwise, this is just a waste of time.
 

[norseman]

1 minute ago, Henry Stevens said:

 

You forgot the link.  There is no association between UP humans and dogs.  You have three maybe-dogs, no DNA.  You forgot the link showing any widespread association between UP humans and dogs over Eurasia at that time.  You are right, there is no association between dogs and Neanderthals which was your theory.  They lived at vastly different times and vastly different places.  Modern dogs are 15, 000 years old, period.  Paleo dogs are a maybe.  If they ever were, they promptly went out of existence. There is no evidence for them outside one French river valley.  This means not in the next French river valley, not in a Spanish river valley, not in a German river valley, not in an English river valley (there was no English Channel then), not in the Ukraine, not in the Near East, not in the Far East, not in Southern Asia.  There is no evidence for them over the range of Aurignacian culture or Perigordian culture, Grevettian culture or Soutrean culture, or Magdelenian culture.  No evidence for them in the Mesolithic.  There is only spotty evidence for them in the Neolithic and find some Neolithic dogs in Europe while you are looking.  Your reasoning is if a dog was present, there is a causal relationship for anything or everything---anything you want to make up.  Are dogs responsible for agriculture?  Are dogs responsible for the wheel? 

 

Your argument died in 1997 as I mentioned with the sequencing of mtDNA for dogs at UCLA.  It wasn't even sophisticated by our standards now.  Apply the molecular clock and it is 15,000 years old.  Any previous dogs are an extreme theory which, as Carl Sagan said, requires extreme proof.  You have none for any of your changing positions.

 

Norseman, when you have some proof linking dogs to Neanderthal extinctions or widespread dogs in the Upper Paleolithic, PM me.  Otherwise, this is just a waste of time.
 

Dogs had no association with Neanderthal BECAUSE they were helping HUMANS hunt for food. Not Neanderthals!

 

Until you make that distinction? We cannot have a serious debate. Either your being purposely obtuse or you simply cannot grasp the concept. 
 

Also, to answer your question are dogs responsible for agriculture or the wheel? Does agriculture rely on domestication of wild animals? Do we pull wheels with domesticated animals? 
 

Do you think that domesticating Dogs 40,000 years ago was a paradigm shift in human behavior to see animals value other than food? Of course. The Dog is the first of many many species. Also, the more successful you are at hunting? The more time you have to tinker with things that make your life even easier. Which becomes snowball effect.