The Ramifications Of Species Verification

[norseman]

Just about everyone who is involved in this endeavor goes through the thought process of wanting to see the sasquatch receive protection, I am not excluded from this group. However, having had the encounters I've had, I try to look at unanticipated outcomes here too. I have given much thought to this, thus I seriously wonder if we are encouraging the opening of a Pandora's Box in this race to prove their existence to the world? Before I took off on my elk hunt I was able to complete another new post on my blog page. But people have to see it in order for the topic to be considered. The subject I raise is one which I feel is very important for everyone to consider, and so I wanted to point to it here and maybe give BFF something more to talk about during the slow holiday period.

And for those of you who were following the Skookum Cast thread, well, we got our first elk on the first day and the second on the third day, and so we headed home early after dealing with the animals. So I don't have anything more to offer right now in that thread as the elk hunt was over so quickly and successfully, I didn't even get to locate any animals bedded down as hoped given the short time there. It was a good trip however.

Anyway, the topic I address is not an easy one to discuss but the reality of poaching and other activities is a reality that cannot be ignored. And while even poachers will not just be able to go out and find a bigfoot, it doesn't mean they won't be trying and thus leading to increased harassment of the species. Plus, protection in North America provides zero protection in other third world countries. For once they know the species actually exists, they will see opportunity where there never was before. Simply providing ESA Protection in the US and Canada will only have limited impact in a time of a new paradigm world wide. And even if other countries also offer protection, well legal protection under the law is only as powerful as the enforcement that is available. It is very difficult, if not impossible, for the authorities to be everywhere in the wilds. That is a reality even here in the Pacific Northwest. Black Markets are also a reality.

So there is the Link to my blog's latest entry. I feel its an important topic and that it deserves discussion given all the chat going on with the DNA Analysis and other ongoing proof claims. I fear that those who are on those trains only have one goal in mind and that is proving these species exist. Well, they need to understand that their actions have potential ramifications too. Those potential ramifications can be a very dark thing.

We have been over this ground before, and you know my stance on it, but I'll elaborate for the other readers here.

If poachers were able to exploit Sasquatch in such a way as you describe they would already be doing so currently. In fact that is probably how a "discovery" would come about. Somebody buys a body part off of the black market and get's lucky and takes it to the right people. I flatly reject that if a bear poacher who is harvesting gall bladders in the woods runs across a Squatch that the Squatch is somehow safer because he is unrecognized to science.

Without recognition there is no management plan in place for the species.........there is no federal funds to help preserve habitat and finally there is no legal framework to combat destruction of habitat. If a dam or a bridge is to be built? The specific needs of each impacted species is weighed and calculated, if your not a recognized species? Too bad for you, your needs are not even considered.

Ultimately I feel the greatest danger to this species isn't a gun.......it's the bulldozer.

[Guest]

Prag, is there any info on whether the large conservation groups like Sierra Club, Nature Conservancy, EDF etc have considered any contingencies should the creature become documented?

PW, as far as I have delved into it after a few conversations with such groups, there really is no movement in that area. When and If Sasquatch are proven to exist, THEN it seems they will assimilate their existence into conservation efforts, but until then, nobody wants to look like a fool proclaiming a need to protect such an allegedly 'imaginary' species. Unfortunately also, there is already less than six percent of original native forests remaining, and most of that is already protected in Wilderness. Frankly, I'm not really sure what more will be set aside given that the remainder of old growth on National Forest is in small blocks as it is. What good does that do to an eco-region where the original value was in how such ecosystems once affected the weather? Now these small tracts are totally at the mercy of the weather because they dry out prematurely in the Summertime because they don't provide enough water storage, and provide much less shelter in the Winter because there is not enough of them.

Norse, good to see you posting again. However you are overlooking some elements again too. We're not talking about a few shady hunters here who harvest Gall Bladders, we're talking about a little seen part of society that operates under clandestine scenarios. Groups which agencies have special enforcement set up under cover to track. Information that rarely comes out in the news unless there is a bust. That aside, once Sas is proven, there will no longer be this mysterious question of whether they even exist. Remember, they exist pretty much everywhere around the world. What good is protection in the US going to provide them in Russia where poaching also runs rampant? People know how to call them in right? Well, to organized criminal groups, a $10K thermal night scope on a rifle and thermal glasses, will be a small price to pay for a few million dollar payoff. And I'm sure you know that there are many in this world who won't allow ethics to be their guide.

The point is that these poachers will try! These poaching rings exist, even though most law abiding people aren't exposed to that element. When they see dollars to be made, they will try. They will also move around, after dark, and if only the mutilation of failures occurs, it will have its own impacts. Impacts we won't even see. That is the nature of the impacts, impacts we won't even be aware of. That's how a clandestine activity takes place and continues to operate under the radar. You know how much wild are there is out there, and after dark, who is to see anything going on? Where is the money going to come from to increase patrols in the millions of miles of roads in the mountains? Exactly what habitats will be protected? It sure won't happen on major private timber company lands, when in fact just the opposite has occurred because all they care about is $$. Heck, Sasquatch spend quite a bit of their time around farmlands at night, especially in the Winter. How much protected Spotted Owl habitat are you aware of on the big timber company lands?

Bear paws in Russia from a single poaching ring, and they are a generally protected species too. Verification and Protection will only create a new, yet-unrecognized demand. Some will see it as a valuable commodity to be exploited and not be caught, that's the other side of human nature.

[Drew]

The documentation of large North American mammal species was wrapped up quite some time ago.

Of course, species documentation is the next and only logical step for those believing Bigfoot to exist.

I think the trail cam network across the United States would certainly cover any creature of the purported size of Bigfoot, the trailcams would track the beast to it's final resting spot on some highway somewhere. Of course I believe the clear cutting lumberjacks of the 1800's, whilst hunting over a cleared hill, would have popped a few of the beasts to roast over a cooking fire, on a northern Michigan winter's night, LONG before the idea of a trail cam ever came into play.

[Guest]

Can't read the writing on your Bigfoot T-shirt, Drew!

Prag, I disagree with you on some points, but I respect you, your opinions, and what you have to say. I want you to know that as I lay out some of the things I disagree with or have questions about, that I don't think that you don't have a clue, that you are an idiot, or that I must be right or that I have all the answers. I honestly don't think anyone does, yet, but regardless, I wanted to make sure that you know where I'm coming from.

In regard to old growth forests and dry, wet, or arid conditions, I don't believe any of those conditions are a limiting factor. In order to establish that, I draw upon the wide variety of habitats represented in the sightings databases (BFRO is a good place to start, as it seems to be the most complete). There is a tremendous amount of land set aside as National Forests, National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges, State Forests, State Parks, etc. I have had numerous contracts with the Forest Service over the years. All of their prescribed burning and timber harvesting was halted for a few years in the mid 1990's due to the efforts of an environmentalist lobbying group, so I am fairly certain that with some creative lobbying the feds would rather set aside some refuges than halt logging and prescribed burning again. That is the compromise that was reached back then (it was additional land then, not specifically refuges).

I'd like to know some more about the poaching groups that you are talking about. I have seen some things on Discovery (I think) about big-time poachers overseas and an international joint task force of some kind that was involved in infiltrating them and busting them. Is that the kind of poachers you are referring to? I am also wondering who their market would be, since there is currently no market, and no current value at all for BF parts outside of proving existence. In regard to having to patrol millions of miles of mountain roads, really you just have to control the way in and out. Will poachers try to find paths to walk in and out? Yes they will, but you wouldn't catch them by patrolling the roads anyway. Poachers kill a few elk in Yellowstone, and a few bear and deer from Smokey Mountains National Park. It is not possible to catch all of them, especially if they are keeping the prize for themselves.

I do not agree that we know how to call the BF in, as it has not been proven. Now is when someone, maybe several people, will chime in and say I don't know what I'm talking about because they do it all the time. Perhaps some people do. My response, like the response of the world at large, is that if you want to be taken seriously about that, then prove it. If you don't care if anyone believes you or not, then it isn't necessary to chime in or argue with someone who says that calling BF in hasn't been proven, no? You are right, Prag, that poachers will try, if there is a market that will pay lots of money. Right now there is at a minimum a $2,000,000 bounty on the body of a sasquatch, and there are more than a few pro-kill BF research groups that are spending quite a bit of time and money trying to procure a specimen, using the latest night vision, FLIR, camera traps, lots of manpower, and almost anything else you can think of, and they have still not produced anything (as in a body), even after all their years of searching. If any one organization produced a BF, dead or alive, taking the $2,000,000 would be selling themselves extremely short, money-wise, with what they could potentially make off of it (I am not questioning the motives of any group, I am merely comparing reward for reward with potential poachers), not to mention the gratification and notoriety. It is difficult to imagine that a creature that has supposedly avoided detection for well over a century would suddenly become in danger of being poached by people who previously couldn't even get a photo of it on a trail camera (I am using the word people in the broad sense).

We also do not know that BF exists in any other country (we suspect), we do not know what its nutritional or physical needs might be, or any other biological requirements/habits/habitat requirements it may have. You are correct that we have no control over any laws or enforcement of laws outside our own country, but I do not believe that is a valid reason to leave the species unrecognized, should it be proven to exist.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Surveyor

[Guest]

Surveyor, I appreciate your response, it was well thought out. I also don't disagree with your second paragraph above and a few other points either. I think we're talking different elements here in some instances. Like private timber lands are managed much different in the PNW as well as other places and they cover quite a bit of ground. They also don't have the same level of restrictions as public lands do. As for public lands, look at the BLM too, their PRIMARY directive is timber production, very little land is protected there. But my main point was that there really is very little of the 'to be managed' federal lands left. National Parks are there for eternity so its mainly National Forests we're talking about. I worked for the forest service as well, and believe me, there is still a strong initiative to get the cut out. Right now this is centered on Thinning, which unfortunately significantly alters the forest canopy, as it opens everything up to the sun. Mushrooms and Lichen do not thrive in these conditions, and these are what ungulates and other residents require to survive Winters. Not to mention, these thinned areas offer zero protection to wildlife in the harsh Winter conditions. No doubt its a complex issue.

As for poacher access, hell, up here there are thousands of crisscrossing roads into the woods, and so there is no such thing as controlling the way in and out. That would be absolutely impossible! Also, how do you control the public lands and let only friendly users in and keep the bad element out? Undoable.

As for calling sasquatch in, heck I don't do any call blasting either, just not my thing. Not how to have a meaningful encounter. But it seems there has been plenty of success at least drawing them that way, at least close enough for a long distance shot if picked up with night scope. And yeah no doubt there are groups that already do this. They may not have produced a specimen, but bigfoot have apparently been maimed this way, so that's an ongoing problem and will continue to be so as you recognize.

What I suspect will occur is that a market will essentially be created once they are proven to exist. No it doesn't exist now, but think about how these third world countries view what these remedies offer them. Tiger bone gives strength and stamina. Some parts are believed to extend life. Others increase virility. yada yada. Well, some of these charlatans in that 'field' will come along and prescribe whatever they can think of about the parts of a sasquatch. Its pretty sick too, but tat's how they operate and there will always be those who believe in such remedies. They do their own marketing to those who are more gullible. That's why these black markets continue, and modern society is unable to circumvent it. All you have to do is a google search and there is plenty to read on it.

What I am concerned about is that as events evolved, there will be many new environments that nobody ever considered, and no amount of lobbying is going to drive which direction things go. Can we lobby the drug cartels to stop killing people who oppose them? The problem is, we don't know which direction things will take, and that's why I raise the issues, so we begin to think about them, because in some ways it really could be a Pandora's Box. What if the Timber Lobby legally throws everything they can to prevent protection, and at the same time, Sasquatch have been sufficiently proven to exist? Does Sasquatch end up in a grey area where they finally are seen to exist, but since they are a form of human, what precedent is there for setting aside wildland for humans? There isn't, that is especially true on private timber lands. Count on a strong battle from timber interests. The law will be manipulated in every way possible.

[Guest StankApe]

I dunno PT. I think the fundamental flaw with your theory is the elusive nature of the beast. I don't think that they will be any easier to find just because we prove they exist via either DNA or a body turns up. People can try all they want, but finding one, shooting it, getting the body and escaping law enforcement all seem to be fairly tall orders when it comes to Bears, much less something that's been darn near impossible to spot!!

[Guest]

Very interesting stuff, Prag, some of which I'll have to think about. We don't have any BLM land here, but we have lots of private timber land, such as Plum Creek, Wayerhouser, and the few holdings that International Paper didn't sell, along with some large private landowners. We do have 1.2 million acres of National Forest here in Mississippi, with the 380,000 acre Desoto National Forest (which I have done the most work in) all around me. However, 87% of all National Forest land is West of the Mississippi River. I have no idea what the breakdown is, but that doesn't really matter as much as how much unbroken wooded land is available, or how much is at least connected by protected travel corridors such as wooded creeks, rivers, valleys, mountains, etc.

As far as land management in regard to private timber land vs federal land, I don't think that matters as much (to an extent of course) as my above description of unbroken forested or semi-forested land or such land that is connected by protected travel corridors. The reason that I do not think that land management matters a tremendous amount is that these lands have been managed for timber production (or whatever they have been managed for) for a long time, and BF have seemed to do well, even increasing in numbers by some researchers' estimations (not sure about that one, so I'm not going to try to defend it at all), therefor actual land management, according to current usages and policies, in and of itself does not seem to be a significant or decisive factor in BF management. It seems to me that listing in the Endangered Species Program (or a higher act, if possible) with extreme consequences would allow for protection within the framework of the law that allows for 1) management of affected private lands according to existing uses, 2) protected areas on federal lands with management plans according to historic uses and/or coexisting endangered species, and 3) protection under federal and international laws, including interstate and international transport.

Sorry if I went overboard with the management plans, we have just finished evaluating management plans and making suggested changes to them in my Mammal Conservation and Management class. Yep, I'm 41 and going back to college for Wildlife Biology and Anthropology. I went to engineering school the first time around and regret it. Money is never a good motivator. Wildlife biology has always been my passion! My 6 year old daughter & I are always watching Discovery, Animal Planet, and Natgeo Wild together (and of course "Bigfoot Shows" as she calls them, lol).

Oh, and I see where you are coming from with the potential future market. I've got some papers and finals this week, but I'll be in & out and will be thinking over your responses.

[Guest]

Stankape, clearly they are possibly the most elusive being on this planet and so I understand what you are saying. But try to realize this, just that simple truth is something that will itself increase their value. And so why protect them if they are so elusive? What's the purpose of that? And if they are that elusive, then how would land be set aside? Habitat is determined by various factors, one of which is identifying if an area has subjects living in the area. Is that something the govt will ever be able to determine? Doubtful, but if so, then the black market rings will eventually be able to as well because Forest Plans are public documents. The irony is, they are more common then most people realize, and if there is ever an actual count, well they probably won't receive protection under the ESA anyhow. As a people, that's a different story. Don't get me wrong either, I'm not saying I wholly disagree with the drive to protect them, and because they are so elusive, then why do they require protection? Maybe because there are ample examples of them being hunted, shot, chased, etc? Then again, they do have a few tricks up their sleeves to stay one step ahead of us. Not to mention, they are capable in many ways of defending themselves, and some of these future poachers will get what's coming to them if they target Sasquatch.

Surveyor, no doubt there are dozens of factors not being considered in this yet evolved issue. We don't know what is going to come out of the woodwork yet. Its just one small piece in a giant paradigm shift. Heck, we don't really know what these beings are either. I sure don't, even if they are of human origin, for all we know, DNA may be relatively similar throughout the universe and they may not be from around here at all... Hell, we may not be from around here either. lol The jury is still out on that one. Anyway, yes I also agree on the land management aspects too because they seem to be able to survive by utilizing our resources as well. The thing is, I don't think land managers could possibly come up with a management plan either, because they aren't going to fit in the box land managers want them to. The govt will want them to be some giant extant ape and that isn't what they are. Timber industry will be even more adamant and will try to play down whatever is alleged and everything significant will be challenged with so called experts from the other side. The Spotted Owl court cases will be a reasonable script of what is to come, however multiply that by ten. I just know from experience, nothing so significant works out as people plan.

Anyway cool that you have an interest in Wildlife Biology, problem is these beings have an aversion to being studied just as they have an aversion to being seen, and yet, they allow themselves to be seen by some more then others. I'm also interested in why that is too. Yet another mystery... I also wonder how we are going to explain to them that they need to stay in their protected areas.

[Guest Jodie]

If bigfoot is confirmed more than likely hunting accidents will increase but I really don't think capturing/killing bigfoot will become easier. We have to know and prove what it is first before we can understand how to protect it or convince government officials that the species needs our protection.

[Guest Strick]

Prag, to echo Jodie you have not not sufficiently explained the mechanism by which Bigfoot will become easier to find (especially for amateurs) after discovery.

There's not an automatic connection between the confirmation of a bipedal primate on one continent and its presence on another. Some of your posts sound unecessarily alarmist to me and even a little paranoid.

[Guest Thepattywagon]

'Capturing/killing bigfoot' will not become easier. However, if the species becomes documented AND there is also a hefty reward for a body, this will create more incentive for a hunter to pull the trigger during an inadvertent sighting.

Instead of simply admiring the creature, there is a much greater chance that the guy behind the gun will see nothing but $$ signs, and will do his best to kill it instead of just observing the animal.

My guess is there are many sightings by hunters who have actually had the creature in their crosshairs, but were loathe to report it, due to the 'wacko' stigma attached to claims of seeing something like this in the woods. But in my opinion, it is the armed hunter sitting quietly in his tree stand who has a greater chance of seeing one, particularly if he is hunting in a very remote area.

[Guest]

Listen to norseman . . .

[Guest]

If bigfoot is confirmed more than likely hunting accidents will increase but I really don't think capturing/killing bigfoot will become easier. We have to know and prove what it is first before we can understand how to protect it or convince government officials that the species needs our protection.

Emphasis mine. Relevant to things not going as planned in the effort to protect them. Its the same as what industry will say. Basically people will begin to believe they exist, but how could they be protected if we can't learn about their behavior? It was the same sort of issue with the Owl, the debate centered around 'what' they really needed for habitat and we probably won't learn anything about their behavior. Not even the most ardent habituators claim such knowledge. The knowledge weakness about them will be exploited to no end by those opposing protection, because that's exactly what their goal will be. Delay, debate, dispute claims, etc. Protecting them won't be the slam dunk as some people think.

But Strick, remember, I also said poachers probably won't be successful ( something to that effect) but there have been incidents in recent years where bigfoot have been shot and injured. Again, I personally know two people who have shot them in past decades. I've had my rifle on me more then once during an encounter and had it pointed at one at only 22'. Shootings do happen quite often but its something that isn't talked about because of the same old reason, they fear people will think they are crazy. But if you put the right kind of scope and night vision with trained killers, the potential will rise for success under more controlled scenarios. If there is a dollar to be made, a new breed will evolve that chooses to focus on opportunity. But even without someone successfully bringing in a body, its the harassment level that will rise and WE won't even see that in our daily lives. Everyone will be home warm in your bed when those who are poaching are at work and few will ever be the wiser. Anyone who lives near a large wild area has heard rifle shots in the night. That's probably just the average poacher, some of course who are subsistence hunting. But some are more organized. We just recently had a small group busted that had killed hundreds of deer. There are many more that don't get caught. Law enforcement doesn't fly to the scene nor are they sitting along a road waiting for shots so they can pinpoint where they came from either, unless they get a report of a suspicious vehicle seen spotlighting. You almost never have witnesses high up in the mountains. Bigfoot poaching will be no different by those who will choose to try. They will learn how to call them in from forums and other bigfoot sites. Heck, Finding Bigfoot is revealing on a mass scale one method that future poachers will use. Some rifles can shoot from a few miles away. Point is that they will have the means once things change.

Also imagine some that are chased and shot at more frequently in the night in specific areas, just how tolerant will they become over time with innocent humans who are merely on a hike when at night they are having to evade other people trying to kill them? Well there are some areas that already have people regularly trying to shoot them, and they seem to be expressing a higher level of aggressiveness as a result. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Individuals will only put up with so much BS. Its not necessarily the successful kills but the continued failed attempts that are going to have the greatest impact on them.

If they are announced as real in the US, other countries will use that as validation of the species existence in their own regions. Same as if the Yeti were proven today, we would be quick to say that if Yeti exists, then why not Sasquatch in the US. We already do that only we don't have complete validation. I'm not trying to be alarmist, but I am trying to promote discussion on some issues that I feel people haven't thoroughly thought through. There comes great responsibility with proving their existence and I don't think people fully appreciate what the outcome may be or what turns will take place. We are more comfortable talking about bigfoot's existence here, but the common individual won't be so quickly assimilated to the fact that they aren't alone in the dark. Different people will react differently and so will opportunists. Its just a fact of life.

[Guest]

Pattywagon- You are right, in that a lot of sightings go undocumented. I talked to the Ca. DFG wildlife management director in early Oct. 11' and she said that reports of Sasquatch come in all the time but that they are never documented. Politics? Budget? both? who knows, but IMHO the Ca. DFG just doesn't want to deal with the subject or has been told to ignore IMO. ptangier

[JDL]

As long as it remains unrecognized there remains no imperative to manage a fundamentally unmanageable species.

And, as I've said before, there's no upside from the government's perspective to recognizing the species.