Erickson Project

[Guest]

Oh for goodness sake!!! Well I guess there is no hope in Hades of the Russians sharing their results without offering them monumental bribes. There has to be descendants somewhere along the line though, or did the family line die out?

[Guest Dudlow]

I don't know if this has been referenced, 'Jodie', but here is a good summary of the Zana phenom:

- Dudlow

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hominology.narod.ru/Khwit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hominology.narod.ru/zanai.htm&usg=__rqGhv-M24j1u-fmfMHBiJSK27rI=&h=610&w=394&sz=94&hl=en&start=3&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=MkLtEXj7AzilkM:&tbnh=136&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3DKhwit%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1

[Guest]

Thanks Dudlow, no one had posted the link, but I found and read it last night. It said the last of the family had passed away that knew where the graves were, but did it mean that the line died out?

[Guest Dudlow]

'Jodie', while the 'end of line' business is not clearly defined in the above article I recall other Russian websites from a few years back indicating that although Zana had several hybrid offspring, at least a couple died shortly after birth while others did not live all that long. The two offspring referenced in the above article are supposed to have been the only longer survivors, but I can no longer locate the exact references. While I have saved a number of Russian websites over the years I have had to delete a few as inoperative.

- Dudlow

[Guest]

Oh well, it was just a thought. I saw where Khwit's daughter was electrocuted. I wonder if that means struck by lightening or capital punishment? Then the son had some children....probably too diluted after over a 100 years to really be useful plus who would want to claim that in this day and age?

[Guest Dudlow]

OMG-Geez, I wonder if Valuev the former world boxing champ is related?

- Dudlow

[Guest]

I met a good candidate for an Almasty descendant right here in Columbia a few years ago. He was a basketball player for the university imported from Russia. He was over 7 feet tall and he had those features. He got on an elevator with me,and as he got in he had to duck his head, and stay hunkered down to ride up with me. It was a bit disconcerting to say the least.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Jodie

[Guest Stubstad]

Thanks for the link about Zana etc. above.

Zana had at least two children (the first two) who died immediately because she washed them off in a nearby creek just after birth, so they froze to death. I don't think she know how to deal with a hybrid offspring.

She had three or four others who DID survive, but only because "the townsfolk" took them away from her immediately after birth. They were raised as normal humans, and because at least somewhat "normal" according to the accounts published by -- guess who -- the Russians.

The last (youngest) of these was Khwit. The Russians now have both Khwit's and Zana's (probably) skulls. Even they they made a deal with Erickson, it would surprise me a great deal if they kept the deal. I told Adrian he'd be smart to just take his money back, since he'll never get those skulls in any event.

It is also my understanding that there are still descendants of Zana living in the area. Khwit's decendants are useless on the mitochondrial side, since Khwit was a male. I don't know if Zana had any daughters who had children; these folks would be valuable, especially on the mitochondrial side.

Still, as you say, whatever descendants remain, the nuclear side would by now be too watered down to do us a whole lot of good anyway.

Not so with Zana's skull; that would be the REAL prize here, and Adrian knew it. He simply made a deal with the devil, and of course they reneged.

Richard

[Guest]

Well, in fact as it turns out that very question IS related to the Erickson project.

Erickson, maybe a year or more ago, made a down payment on the Khwit skull, and/or maybe the Zana skull (or both). He made the deal with the Russians, the ones we have all heard of.

As of the last I heard (a month or two ago), the Russians hadn't delivered anything at all. They wanted to give Adrian his deposit back, but Adrian said "no", he wanted the skull(s) because that was the contractual deal in any event.

As of now, my best educated guess is that the Russians have taken the information I have posted, and others have posted or published, and are running their own "internal" tests in Moscow.

If Adrian had these skulls, they would have been included in our parallel study. Not because we really want to expand beyond North America, but simply because it appears that Zana was genetically related to our sasquatch -- assuming both exist.

As usual, Adrian gets the short end of the stick.

Richard

If this is all true, the purchase of Zana and Khwit's remains by Erickson seems a bit tacky to me. These were still humans even if part other. It would be no less inappropriate to purchase anybody else's skull. Not to mention these belong to the people of Russia not USA or Canada. If some Russian Official made an unauthorized agreement with Erickson, I suspect that Erickson already knew he was skirting ethical boundaries in the first place but hoped to land the deal. Such a purchase just doesn't seem appropriate. Its one thing if he wanted to gain temporary access (loan) so that scientists could study them and then return afterwards, but its another to purchase these skulls, to never be returned to the rest of their remains. People with money need to learn to use the brakes once in a while. Again, its about International purchase of human remains and not appropriate. If Erickson had a deceased relative with mixed Neanderthal DNA, would his family sell the skull to someone abroad?

Edited October 2, 2011 by PragmaticTheorist

[Guest Dudlow]

It's too bad all of this Sasquatch DNA business - including the Russian component - couldn't be properly gathered, coordinated and funnelled into the Max Planck Institute in Leipzig as a major research undertaking. As the number one DNA lab on the planet they could probably contribute hugely to what is being haggled and stumbled over, higgledy-piggledy, all over the damned place.

- Dudlow

Edited October 2, 2011 by Dudlow

[Guest Stubstad]

I think in fact the idea was to turn over the skulls to an appropriate public museum somewhere or other -- after the proper testing was accomplished.

I don't think these skulls are, or ever have been, in the "hands" of any Russian authorities whatsoever. They are under the control of the two or three Russians we hear from, from time to time, mainly about their Neanderthal theory but more recently much more in line with our thinking and ongoing research here in North America.

Last I heard, in fact, the Russians had raised some money "locally" to do their own research, in either Moscow or St. Petersburg or whatever the town next to Finland on the Baltic is called now. Why Adrian didn't just take his hard-earned money back is beyond me. That's the way things turn out with practically ANY Russian businessman. Agreements are definitely not worth the paper they are written on.

In a way, if the news I have heard is true, this in fact becomes another parallel study that is likely underway "as we speak".

The idea of the Max Planck Institute is a good one too, not just for Khwit & Zana but the rest of "our" samples as well. We'll see how that angle works out.

Re. Melba Ketchum, I know her quite well and I wouldn't yet read too much into her "no show" in Oklahoma. I have been with her in a similar situation, and she becomes extremely nervous when she is about to enter "the public eye" so to speak. She's frankly more than a bit vain too boot, since her posted pictures all over the internet do not really resemble the "current" Melba. Besides, she has aged like the rest of us, so what does one expect anyway?

Bottom line: She may have a "technical" reason for bombing out today, but then again she may have simply buckled under the pressure to "perform" and, frankly, look good in her own eyes.

She looks just fine for a lady of her age; if she would just accept that, she'd be fine in public too. Still, she's a VERY self-conscious person by nature in any event.

We'll have to cut her some slack, frankly -- at least about the no-show today.

Richard

[Guest]

To be turned over to a museum would appear more altruistic in nature, but its still removing a skull from the rest of the skeleton which it belongs. Our Native people wouldn't accept this, why should Russia over one of their own? I suspect that there are issues we don't know about with respect to who may have initially made a deal with Erickson on this, so there is a lot of guessing here. For someone to take the initiative of retracting from the arrangement would seem more like a realization that it is inappropriate to sell such remains to outsiders (from a Russian perspective). I can't blame them .

The Russian Govt is indeed taking the Sasquatch mystery more serious of late too. In just a few days the Kemerovo Region of Siberia will be holding it first International Hominology Conference at a university there sponsored by their government. I almost attended as well, thanks to Igor Burtsev, but financing didn't work out after getting my passport in too late. I'm hoping to make it next year and to include some once in a lifetime field time there as well. Anyway yes, Russia is entering the field a little more so then they have in the past.

[Guest]

To be turned over to a museum would appear more altruistic in nature, but its still removing a skull from the rest of the skeleton which it belongs. Our Native people wouldn't accept this, why should Russia over one of their own? I suspect that there are issues we don't know about with respect to who may have initially made a deal with Erickson on this, so there is a lot of guessing here. For someone to take the initiative of retracting from the arrangement would seem more like a realization that it is inappropriate to sell such remains to outsiders (from a Russian perspective). I can't blame them .

The Russian Govt is indeed taking the Sasquatch mystery more serious of late too. In just a few days the Kemerovo Region of Siberia will be holding it first International Hominology Conference at a university there sponsored by their government. I almost attended as well, thanks to Igor Burtsev, but financing didn't work out after getting my passport in too late. I'm hoping to make it next year and to include some once in a lifetime field time there as well. Anyway yes, Russia is entering the field a little more so then they have in the past.

I enjoy your blog David, keep the updates coming !

[Guest]

I don't really have an issue with Erickson trying to buy those skulls. People donate bodies to science all the time, family members allow testing to get answers for descendants. I assume the last remaining family member that knew where the graves were allowed the researchers to exhume the skulls, but it didn't really say one way or the other. Either way, as long as I remained anonymous, I would not mind if they tested my great great grandmother's skull. If there were health issues with my subsequent decendants it might be important to know the heritage.

So could Erickson not negotiate for molars from each skull? I'm sure he tried but was just wondering. Supposedly Tatyana, Khwit's daughter, had the red eyes. It doesn't say whether Khwit's sister, Raya, had any children, but it does say that just about all of the descendants were traced. Maybe you should contact Igor Burstev to see if there are any direct line female descendants. Maybe you can negotiate for a sample from that woman, if she exists. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, I don't see why it would hurt to do a little research and ask.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=146808308701151

[Guest]

We have at least one similar incident to the Zana one recorded in Washington State among the Colville Indians. Check out this article by Dr. Ed Fush, anthropologist. For that particular story, scroll down to "The Stick Indians of the Colvilles" and begin reading. It is very interesting.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/fusch.htm