So They're Presumedly Smart

[Guest]

No, they still thought that vapors caused disease. Edward Jenner came up with the first smallpox vaccine back in 1796 made of cow pox, a less virulent form, but not many bought into the idea at the time.

[Huntster]

No, they still thought that vapors caused disease. Edward Jenner came up with the first smallpox vaccine back in 1796 made of cow pox, a less virulent form, but not many bought into the idea at the time.

1) We are discussing the Spanish military invasion of Mexico (circa 1519-1521) and the two smallpox epidemics in the Valley of Mexico (circa 1520-21 and 1545-48) as well as the typhus epidemic (circa 1576–81).

2) Even if a common belief was that "vapors caused disease", they had no idea that those "vapors" would occur precisely when they needed them to, that the "vapors" would only affect their enemies, and that the "vapors" would so thoroughly decimate their enemies or that they would spread throughout two continents.

3) They had no idea that the "vapors" were coming from them.

4) These diseases continued to decimate all human populations (including the United States) well into the 20th Century (note the photo of the unfortunate American from 1912):

Simply put, Hernan Cortes had no idea what was happening biologically, how extensively it would happen, that he could use it as a weapon, that it came from him and his men, and that it would only affect the aboriginal population.

The attempt to portray it as controlled "biological warfare" is (quite simply and clearly) just more racist blathering that I don't buy for a second. However, I'm very open to reviewing any "data" otherwise, and would thoroughly enjoy slashing it to bits.

Please provide such references.

[Guest]

1) We are discussing the Spanish military invasion of Mexico (circa 1519-1521) and the two smallpox epidemics in the Valley of Mexico (circa 1520-21 and 1545-48) as well as the typhus epidemic (circa 1576–81).

2) Even if a common belief was that "vapors caused disease", they had no idea that those "vapors" would occur precisely when they needed them to, that the "vapors" would only affect their enemies, and that the "vapors" would so thoroughly decimate their enemies or that they would spread throughout two continents.

3) They had no idea that the "vapors" were coming from them.

4) These diseases continued to decimate all human populations (including the United States) well into the 20th Century (note the photo of the unfortunate American from 1912):

Simply put, Hernan Cortes had no idea what was happening biologically, how extensively it would happen, that he could use it as a weapon, that it came from him and his men, and that it would only affect the aboriginal population.

The attempt to portray it as controlled "biological warfare" is (quite simply and clearly) just more racist blathering that I don't buy for a second. However, I'm very open to reviewing any "data" otherwise, and would thoroughly enjoy slashing it to bits.

Please provide such references.

I was agreeing with you sir. I know all that.

[Huntster]

Almost any animal (snake, field mouse, bird, deer, bear, etc.) would survive longer than the average human, but it doesn't make them more intelligent.

I'm knocking at the door of 60 years old, and would you believe that I would "survive longer" than "snakes, field mice, birds, deer, bear, etc"?

Indeed, I'll bet that I'll eat all of the above (except snakes and mice) before you can verify squat.

Gotta' bet?

[Guest]

Eel tastes pretty good, I bet snakes taste about the same. Rats and mice wouldn't be bad either if they taste anything like squirrel gravy.

[Guest ChrisBFRPKY]

EEK! Jodie I'm gonna have to be awful hungry before I eat a snake. That's just too far into the creepy category for me to get around. Chris B.

[Guest]

For those interested in the recent understanding of the role of white matter in the brain, here's a link to an article on the subject of ape strength and white matter from the University of Chicago a while back.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/592023

I would also mention, regarding intelligence, that hardwired complex behaviors (instincts or simply human nature) which are often associated with intelligence, such as attitudes towards others and predilictions toward social cohesion or conflict, which are present in humans and presumably were in some of our ancestors, though somewhere down in our ancestral past something radical happened to humans that made us even more different from other social primates; we became tolerant of strangers of our own kind. I've long thought that if humans had not ceased expressing that almost universal comonality we would have not been able to develope the capacity for social structure that defines modern humans, and would have instead remained small groups, without aliances, without need for language, without ability to stay in one place and cultivate resources. As a thought experiment; imagine putting 50 average but randomly selected human adult men together in a confined space with none of them having any knowledge of each other, and within a relatively short while they will have formed alliances and friendships and maybe even factions. Now imagine 50 adult male primates, chimps for example but any species will do, and imagine how long it would take before the melee of violence begins as every chimp tries to destroy every other one for fear of being destroyed itself.

This doesn't mean people cant be provoked into doing terrible things, and history shows that we have and are likely to continue, but our ability to get along with complete strangers comfortably and when greatly outnumbered is an aspect of human nature that is really pretty unique among the other primates, even the ones whom we regard as being rather social.

[Guest]

1) We are discussing the Spanish military invasion of Mexico (circa 1519-1521) and the two smallpox epidemics in the Valley of Mexico (circa 1520-21 and 1545-48) as well as the typhus epidemic (circa 1576–81).

That's just one of hundreds of conquests over indigenous peoples in the Americas to which I was referring, Huntster. I did not imply that Cortes used biological warfare, I was writing more generally.

More to the point though, it appears that you are correct and I was perpetuating something of an urban legend with my comment about "intentional" spread of smallpox among Native Americans at the hands of the advancing power (in this case, the U.S. military). Thanks to your objection, I did some research and agree that it looks as though such events never happened. I want to express my apologies to the BFF for spreading misinformation about that issue. We all owe Huntster a debt of gratitude for keeping me honest about that and helping debunk a bunk belief held by a lot of people.

Back on topic, human technology trumps animal intelligence and comfort in the animal's environment. If you don't like the example among humans, whales are potentially every bit as smart as we are - perhaps smarter - and they do have complex abilities (using infrasound for example or finding food through echolocation) that are foreign and in many ways more advanced than anything we can do. They also swim a lot better than we do. But our technology allowed us to conquer them - so much so that we used them for lighting dressing rooms so dressmaids could see what they were doing as they laced whalebone corsets of fashionable, tiny-waisted ladies.

[Guest RayG]

I'm knocking at the door of 60 years old, and would you believe that I would "survive longer" than "snakes, field mice, birds, deer, bear, etc"?

Indeed, I'll bet that I'll eat all of the above (except snakes and mice) before you can verify squat.

Gotta' bet?

Calm down Mr. Grylls, did you miss the part where I said the average human?

RayG

[Huntster]

Back on topic, human technology trumps animal intelligence and comfort in the animal's environment.

That is true, however (and this has been my point all along) human technology only offers utility when used. If it is not used, it provides no utility.

For example, humanity has myriads of technology to alter our surrounding temperature. We have shelters, heaters, air conditioning, venting, clothing, etc, but people die of exposure all the time.

So if all this wonderful technology is not used to capture a sasquatch (or is not used in the proper location, to the extent necessary, etc), it will not result in the capture of a sasquatch.

[Guest]

First of all, I want to hear other believers opinions about how smart sasquatches are. Based on what ive read, they use many various tactics for scaring away humans. There are many reports of language being used. Their stealthiness alone says a lot about their intelligence. It requires some thinking to be able to move so silently and to understand the surroundings and use them to their advantage. So I wonder a lot about how smart they really are and secondly, I wonder if it would ever be possible to meaningfully communicate with one. By that I mean actually understanding what each other are saying.

[Guest gershake]

http://bigfootforums...Bthan+%2Bhumans

[Guest FuriousGeorge]

I merged Kraig's topic into this one. Please continue.

[Guest]

That is true, however (and this has been my point all along) human technology only offers utility when used. If it is not used, it provides no utility.

For example, humanity has myriads of technology to alter our surrounding temperature. We have shelters, heaters, air conditioning, venting, clothing, etc, but people die of exposure all the time.

So if all this wonderful technology is not used to capture a sasquatch (or is not used in the proper location, to the extent necessary, etc), it will not result in the capture of a sasquatch.

Which means or is translated to: THEY win. WE lose.

[Guest]

EEK! Jodie I'm gonna have to be awful hungry before I eat a snake. That's just too far into the creepy category for me to get around. Chris B.

Heading out to Yellowstone one day in the past... at the time we were in So Dakota at a little country cowboy bar. Working a cerveza y all of a sudden I hear this conversation... a gal of approx 60 was talking to a friend.. I overheard part of the conversation.. and it was what I thought it was.. fixing snakes at the campfire. I prodded her on the shoulder gently, smiled and said could I have that recipe again? She laughed, said sure, and preceded to tell me it tastes like chicken honey.. just use Shake and Bake... lol... Sorry Chris, could not resist Have I tried it? Nope, but alligator and snapping turtle are pretty good so you are close and got lots of friends who like green iguana.. so.. ??

Edited March 20, 2011 by treeknocker