Debunk The Debunking

[Sasfooty]

Sasfooty, I wouldn't think that you, of all people, would want to open that can of worms.

Well, I've got pretty used to worms, lately.

[Guest]

Be careful what you ask for:

Ooh, you're gooood. Nice catch.

I'm not feeling that "caught" however, as the context of that discussion was clearly on the topic of large North American mammals and not "all known animals." I really don't think there are examples of road-killed sea anemones.

For those interested in the further castration of inanimate equids, why don't we agree upon a list of large mammals in North America, examine the strength of evidence for each in roadkill (in which the animal actually dies), and work from there to see if there is anything to be gained from discussing bigfoot as roadkill? The more specific we are, the less likely we are to have conflicts stemming from differences in word usage, a la "wildlife" and "animals." For large mammals, I'm talking about animals that routinely exceed 100 lbs in weight as adults. I'm excluding marine mammals and manatees, and considering species native to the Lower 48 States and southern Canada.

I'll start:

Carnivores:

wolf (includes red and gray wolves)

cougar (includes Florida panther)

jaguar

black bear

grizzly bear

Artiodactyls:

caribou

moose

elk

mule deer (includes blacktail deer)

white-tailed deer (excludes Key deer)

pronghorn

mountain goat

bighorn sheep (includes "desert bighorns")

bison

Who've I forgotten?

[Wheellug]

I'm very glad to that manatee's have been excluded. You know how they are when they try to cross a road..

I think the discussion just got a bit tuned up due to a possible miss-understanding.

When I first read it, it came across as "Every collision always results in a kill and always produces a body". I would have to disagree with that one.

Perhaps a natural reaction could also be thought of. An example being an armadillo. There wouldn't be so many 'dillo kills if it weren't for their natural response to 'jump' when startled.

Many drivers will attempt to not run over them with a tire. It's the fact that they jump up they hit beneath a vehicle that gets them killed a majority of the time. (yes there have been reports published, I cannot point them out at this time)

The sasquatch typically deals with deer, elk, and possibly a bison (in the past when herds were huge?) Perhaps when threatened with a charge they know to leap out of the way, or perhaps up and over. In that an on coming vehicle catches one by surprise, perhaps they do just leap out of the way or over the vehicle. Perhaps their skeletal makeup has given them stronger bones to deal with their greater strength, which helps to increase survivability in any encounter.

I know it's a load of 'what if's', but it's just a thought.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Wheellug

[Guest]

First, the burden of proof is on the believers. Skeptics do not have to prove anything. Skeptics don't have to prove you did not see a bigfoot when camping. Skeptics do not have to prove what you hit with your car was not a bigfoot. So please don't ask me to prove anything.

That's a load of bull. If YOU are making an assertive claim, it is on YOU to produce evidence to support that claim.

That is the biggest problem I have with "skeptics" on this topic: one standard for "believers" (prove it prove it prove it!) and another for themselves (we don't gotta prove nothing!)

[Guest]

Well, then you must have lots of good pictures to show us. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't feel qualified to be here criticizing our efforts.

BINGO!

This is the tedious part of debating on a bf forum: having to go all the way back to square one when some new "skeptic" shows up with the same tired non-arguements, psuedo-arguements and logical fallacies that virtually every one of his predecessors has trotted out. How many times do we have to go through this?

[Guest]

Ooh, you're gooood. Nice catch.

I'm not feeling that "caught" however, as the context of that discussion was clearly on the topic of large North American mammals and not "all known animals." I really don't think there are examples of road-killed sea anemones.

For those interested in the further castration of inanimate equids, why don't we agree upon a list of large mammals in North America, examine the strength of evidence for each in roadkill (in which the animal actually dies), and work from there to see if there is anything to be gained from discussing bigfoot as roadkill? The more specific we are, the less likely we are to have conflicts stemming from differences in word usage, a la "wildlife" and "animals." For large mammals, I'm talking about animals that routinely exceed 100 lbs in weight as adults. I'm excluding marine mammals and manatees, and considering species native to the Lower 48 States and southern Canada.

I'll start:

Carnivores:

wolf (includes red and gray wolves)

cougar (includes Florida panther)

jaguar

black bear

grizzly bear

Artiodactyls:

caribou

moose

elk

mule deer (includes blacktail deer)

white-tailed deer (excludes Key deer)

pronghorn

mountain goat

bighorn sheep (includes "desert bighorns")

bison

Who've I forgotten?

BAHAHAHAHAHA lolololol "choke" this is so hilarious to me, does no one else see the humor in this?

You forgot brown bears and domesticated mammals such as horses and cows that escape their enclosures.

[Sunflower]

Mulder,

Please don't get upset with the skeptics because you will only get frustrated and angry. I feel like just like Sasfooty and a few other friends.

The only way the skeptics will figure this out, as I've mentioned before, is to make their own visits to the woods. All the best cameras could be in the woods but the shadowfolk saw them being put there so that's a big waste of time and money.

Just ignore them (the skeptics)and eventually they will go away. They, IMO, just come here to stir up folks like us who do believe, as if they are going to rock our world Ha! Don't fall for it. When you give them the power to do this, you've given them the satisfaction.

It's only destructive and what we need is constructive efforts.

Maybe guys like that could start their own forum.....

[Sasfooty]

Maybe guys like that could start their own forum.....

That would never do, Sunflower!

The whole point is to try to convince us that we didn't see what we know we saw, and to accuse us of making "CLAIMS". (Like that is a dirty word or something.)

Since none of them apparently have ever seen, they need us.

They couldn't have any fun just agreeing with each other all the time.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Sasfooty

[Guest]

BAHAHAHAHAHA lolololol "choke" this is so hilarious to me, does no one else see the humor in this?

You forgot brown bears and domesticated mammals such as horses and cows that escape their enclosures.

I don't see humor in it. I'm trying to engage in an adult discussion on the topic. If you cannot do that, then I am sorry for you.

I'm not sure brown bears (as distinct from grizzlies) make the Lower 48 and southern Canada cut. "Wildlife" does not include domesticated stock. If you would like to open the list, however, I'm happy to include some examples.

The most obvious group to add would be feral hogs (oh! and I forgot javelinas on the previous list.)

Next we might consider wild horses and burros.

If we include any currently domesticated stock that escape from confinement, then the list grows rapidly to include almost any breed of horses, cattle, swine, sheep, goats, llamas, camels, etc. If you want to consider anything behind a fence that might escape at some point and cross a road, then we'll be adding emus, ostriches, eland, kudu, blackbuck, nilgai, gemsbok, tahr, mouflon, ibex, and anything else that might be large and otherwise confined, e.g., circus elephants, big cats, etc. I think the normal confinement of these animals makes them irrelevant to this discussion.

So easy adds are (1) javelina, (2) feral hogs, (3) feral horses (e.g., mustangs, Chincoteague horses) and (4) feral burros. I could be convinced that cattle and sheep on open range might also be added, but I'm not yet.

[Sunflower]

Wheelug,

You got the gist of my report. A few years ago on another forum that no longer exists, I titled it "feats of the feet" because of the very fact that the shadowfolk have been reported to make those enormous leaps and that fact solidified what happened to my siblings. I seem to remember one man reporting a leap of 20 feet. I walked that off in my yard with a tape and OMG! That is amazing!

They are fast, stealthy, strong, and so talented in other ways.

[southernyahoo]

Ooh, you're gooood. Nice catch.

I'm not feeling that "caught" however, as the context of that discussion was clearly on the topic of large North American mammals and not "all known animals." I really don't think there are examples of road-killed sea anemones.

For those interested in the further castration of inanimate equids, why don't we agree upon a list of large mammals in North America, examine the strength of evidence for each in roadkill (in which the animal actually dies), and work from there to see if there is anything to be gained from discussing bigfoot as roadkill? The more specific we are, the less likely we are to have conflicts stemming from differences in word usage, a la "wildlife" and "animals." For large mammals, I'm talking about animals that routinely exceed 100 lbs in weight as adults. I'm excluding marine mammals and manatees, and considering species native to the Lower 48 States and southern Canada.

I'll start:

Carnivores:

wolf (includes red and gray wolves)

cougar (includes Florida panther)

jaguar

black bear

grizzly bear

Artiodactyls:

caribou

moose

elk

mule deer (includes blacktail deer)

white-tailed deer (excludes Key deer)

pronghorn

mountain goat

bighorn sheep (includes "desert bighorns")

bison

Who've I forgotten?

I'd say that for each individual representing each of those species that have died in a collision with a vehicle, there is probably 10 other individuals that lived or didn't die on the spot. I'm not a big fan of arguments based on "absence of evidence is evidence of absence". When BF "is" proven to exist, how stong will this argument be? Will it be used to argue that BF offically went extinct yesterday?

[Guest]

When BF "is" proven to exist, how stong will this argument be?

Will it be any stronger if 20 years from now we still haven't had a road-killed bigfoot or other forthcoming proof?

[Guest Knuck]

It never ceases to amaze me that people who DON'T KNOW, will do their "best" to get those that DO KNOW to fold and admit some mistake, or doubt in what they saw. READ; Saw, CLEARLY, over and over. Smelled over and over. Interacted with over and over. Not a fleeting glimpse of "something dark". Not a chance unusual sound. Not a vague wiff of a strange odor.

Those that KNOW, are trying here to relate what they KNOW. Some of those that do NOT KNOW, can't stand to be on the outside looking in. So they attempt to cloud the issue, and keep anyone who doesn't KNOW from putting one iota of belief in what's being told. Oh forbid there to be ONE MORE beleiver!

Skeptics/scoftics/non believers, when will you people understand that those that KNOW, don't give a rat's patoot whether you believe or not. Like it was said earlier, WE have our PROOF! GET YOUR OWN.

Why should we argue with you people about something you have no intention to give an open mind to. Until you are standing in front of one, see it clearly, smell it's body odor and breath, and experience it's reasoning and physical abilities, you are not going to believe. You must convince yourself of reality. Arguing,("debating") WILL NOT enlighten ANYONE HERE. JMHO-KNUCK

[Drew]

I have found verification of every animal on Saskeptics list.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/publications/eng_publications/environment/WRIG/WRIG_PocketSize.pdf

http://skytruth.mediatools.org/gallery/514?q=gallery/514

Edited December 17, 2010 by Drew

[Guest]

Sorry Drew, the MTI document does not state equivocally or provide photo evidence that a body has been recovered for each item on Sas's latest and much bracketed list, much less his and other earlier assertions about 'all wildlife', or 'all large mammals', or, or or......back to the original 'only BF is immune' statement. Most of the photos in the document actually show live animals, not corpses.

The point was and remains that the goalposts were moved, several times with respect to 'roadkill' and then 'roadkill with a recoverable body'.

And just to point out, the WARS database itself, which none of the skeptics have directly pointed to, should be the likely proof source since it will indicate reported roadkill which presumably resulted in a recoverable body. Even that though would only be evidence that every animal for which there has been a roadkill event with recoverable body, has been a roadkill event with recoverable body - kind of a circular reasoning if you get my meaning.

My point was that an opinion, several opinions in fact, were stated as fact, and when challenged were repeatedly bracketed and clarified until it could reasonably be argued (from 'all' to a list of less than two dozen species).

That is textbook moving goalposts, which has been my primary point.

Edited December 17, 2010 by infoman