Debunk The Debunking

[Guest]

At least you place this option last, as it is the LEAST likely given all the evidence in toto for BF existing.

Saved the best for last, Mulder.

[Guest]

Is it actually the skeptics' position that there is roadkill evidence for every single 'known' animal? Without exception, every single 'known' animal has not only been struck by a car but a body has been recovered. Is that the actual argument?

[Guest]

Is it actually the skeptics' position that there is roadkill evidence for every single 'known' animal? Without exception, every single 'known' animal has not only been struck by a car but a body has been recovered. Is that the actual argument?

It wouldn't surprise me, given how they cling to the debunked notion that the fossil record does exactly that.

[Guest]

It wouldn't surprise me, given how they cling to the debunked notion that the fossil record does exactly that.

Who is this "they?"

[Sunflower]

There are so many possibilities to consider as to why "no roadkill" and I have had several years to sit on this story. It is only my theory and no one else's.

In 1978 my brother and sister were driving home from school in November. It was dark but I'm not sure exactly what time it was. My memories are that it was dinnertime as in 6pm or so. They were driving an old Pontiac that needed a muffler and were about a mile from home. They came over one of the last hills on our road and a two legged something jumped over the hood of the car.

I am just repeating what they told me. I insisted at the time it was probably a big bird, although I was just as shocked as they were. They said the legs were thick and hairy and I still insisted that they were mistaken. We almost got into an argument over this and only after I put two and two together later did I even consider it was a hairy person.

There were several signs of something other than deer in the woods across the road. My brothers knew what was in the woods and even named it....."the breather." They would even throw fireworks into the trees to get a response. They were young and fearless, I have to say.

I, however, was not amused. I hated the word "fire" and really was quite upset at them.

Plus, the skeptic in me didn't want to believe even though I heard it several times. My horses heard it, my family heard it but still I was a blockhead about all this.

One night, my youngest brother was tossing M80's into the woods across the road, my other brother had a flashlight. He shined it where my youngest bro said and there it was. He said the eyes were as big as golf balls, colored like amber, it had tan hair and as soon as the light hit it, the trees started popping and breaking. He said it sounded like a dump truck was driving through the woods away from them.

We have talked about this since then in a lot more detail. I was just not in the mood for something like this living across from my house and was in total denial.

So, my theory is this: I do not think they walk in front of cars and trucks on purpose. They are very woods smart but not street smart. They take chances for whatever reason but might get very confused where mechanical items are concerned, like cars, trucks, tractors, and so forth. They might not realize how dangerous it is.

The deer I almost hit on Thanksgiving day was a foot from my fender on my left but actually stopped and looked at my car. Unpredictable is the only thought that comes to mind.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Sunflower

[Drew]

Is it actually the skeptics' position that there is roadkill evidence for every single 'known' animal? Without exception, every single 'known' animal has not only been struck by a car but a body has been recovered. Is that the actual argument?

It is my position, that every large mammal in North America has been struck by a car, and a body has been recovered.

This includes the smartest mammal in North America as well.

Please offer a large mammal that you think has escaped, (other than the Bigfoot) and I will probably be able to provide you with a photo, or a police report detailing it.

Up front I can tell you that Bison, Deer, Florida Panther, Cougar, Elk, Black Bear, Grizzly Bear, humans and moose have all been documented as roadkill.

[Guest]

It is my position, that every large mammal in North America has been struck by a car, and a body has been recovered.

This includes the smartest mammal in North America as well.

Please offer a large mammal that you think has escaped, (other than the Bigfoot) and I will probably be able to provide you with a photo, or a police report detailing it.

Up front I can tell you that Bison, Deer, Florida Panther, Cougar, Elk, Black Bear, Grizzly Bear, humans and moose have all been documented as roadkill.

I don't think, I know it walked off, it was a cow. It was dawn and I was on my way to work. I came around a corner to find a car stopped and half way across the lane with the whole front end crumpled, air bag deployed, with the person in a state of shock, but otherwise unhurt. Betsy the cow was meandering back across the downed barbed wire fence to get back into the pasture like nothing happened. I don't know if the cow was later found to be hurt but it tore the car up.

[Guest]

It is my position, that every large mammal in North America has been struck by a car, and a body has been recovered.

This includes the smartest mammal in North America as well.

Please offer a large mammal that you think has escaped, (other than the Bigfoot) and I will probably be able to provide you with a photo, or a police report detailing it.

Up front I can tell you that Bison, Deer, Florida Panther, Cougar, Elk, Black Bear, Grizzly Bear, humans and moose have all been documented as roadkill.

And you can prove this - every large mammal has been killed and a body recovered - every large mammal, without exception.

[Sasfooty]

In 1978 my brother and sister were driving home from school in November. It was dark but I'm not sure exactly what time it was. My memories are that it was dinnertime as in 6pm or so. They were driving an old Pontiac that needed a muffler and were about a mile from home. They came over one of the last hills on our road and a two legged something jumped over the hood of the car.

They said the legs were thick and hairy and I still insisted that they were mistaken. We almost got into an argument over this and only after I put two and two together later did I even consider it was a hairy person.

That's a good account, Sunflower! Makes you wonder how many other times something like that happened & nobody but the family ever heard about it.

A video that Vilnoori posted in another thread, shows an athlete running toward a moving car, & jumping up, stepping on the hood, & going over it with no injury to himself. There's no reason why a BF couldn't do the same thing. That sort of acrobatics has probably saved a lot of them from injury.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Sasfooty

[Guest]

Mulder, good one on the references to vehicle contacts.

Sunflower, cool. Neat exchange series.

Guys, gals, I made mention earlier in another thread about a semitruck driver who hit one

(mentioned in John Green, Apes Among Us) on hwy 101. The crest of the head was seen over the cab

it glanced off and catapulted off the side of the truck immediately after impact. High speed hit

I believe, do not quote me, from rounding a corner. In other words a surprise to the subject and

it was not likely a full grown adult specimen but more likely younger and wth stats, likely male.

The terror from the driver was such no way was he going back to see results. That is the closest

one I know of that might have resulted in a fatal injury.

[Guest]

And you can prove this - every large mammal has been killed and a body recovered - every large mammal, without exception.

Are you setting up for a big reveal, like there are no walrus roadkills or something? Maybe you're planning to play the subspecies card . . .

Of native, terrestrial vertebrates > 50 kg extant in the U.S. and southern Canada that occur in roaded areas, I cannot think of any exceptions. It's possible that something Dall sheep or desert bighorn or bison are unconfirmed; I don't know about the degree to which these mammals are distributed near roads. But coyotes, wolves, cougars, bears, javelina, deer, elk, moose, bighorn - even mountain goat - all are roadkill victims.

[Guest]

I know as absolutely silly as it sounds.. the comparison of these creatures may prove out to be much more similar to us than that of the normally accepted species of wildlife we are used to. With that, and the idea of primates, I wonder what the score is for roadkilled chimps, bonobos, gorilla and orangs. I find it very intriguing that some of the defensive displays of orangs (hunkering down on the road when crossing or doing so when moving from one isolated forest to another (whole substantial forest removal being typical in undeveloped countries)is represented in some of the sasquatch reports.

One notable was in I believe both books written on New York sightings by a pair of brothers. There ARE other reports or suggestions of that nature as well including from at least one BFF member. Mulder ?? One more I remember is in Dr. Rob Alleys book Rainforest Sasquatch.. a couple were in a desolate area enjoying their presumed desolation when the man picked up something in an open area apparently approaching them.. he got the lights on it and was .. lets just say filled with emotion. They left promptly. Many reports tend to describe sasquatches shaking vehicles. This comes up over and over and over. That is another story The defensive and inquisitive nature that continues to be described in many reports is worth noting. What are they? Scattered through many threads... & decent references by many authors and we all have our favorites.

Edited December 16, 2010 by treeknocker

[Guest]

Are you setting up for a big reveal, like there are no walrus roadkills or something? Maybe you're planning to play the subspecies card . . .

Of native, terrestrial vertebrates > 50 kg extant in the U.S. and southern Canada that occur in roaded areas, I cannot think of any exceptions. It's possible that something Dall sheep or desert bighorn or bison are unconfirmed; I don't know about the degree to which these mammals are distributed near roads. But coyotes, wolves, cougars, bears, javelina, deer, elk, moose, bighorn - even mountain goat - all are roadkill victims.

No, no big reveal about walruses or the like. Merely pointing out that it was an assumption, given as a statement of fact, and further to point out that there is no verifiable documentation of stated fact that all animals except BF have been roadkill and bodies recovered.

Also, to point out how the argument has moved from from BF alone being immune (ridicule), to all mammals are roadkill, to all large mammals to roadkill, and finally to a named list and a proposed weight of 50kg or greater.

I am not arguing that there is not a lot of roadkill by the way, only that there is a logic problem with the argument that a lack of verifiable BF body specifically resultant from roadkill is a huge problem.

It certainly is curious, but it is also, to me at least, curious that hunters are sometimes not able to find animals they successfully shoot but do not take down on the spot. These animals in many cases do eventually succumb to the injury from the shot, but they may run so far as to not be recoverable. They leave blood trails, as have some reported BF/car collisions, but a combination of terrain, vegetation, fences, etc., ultimately prevent the body from being recovered. The body is then subject to opportunistic scavenging and disappears, like the vast majority of all animal deaths in the wild.

Also, The BF/car collisions I remembered occured in roadcrossing situations with the animal occasionally knocked off the road (as in down an embankment). As I said before, to someone who does not believe in the animal, who strikes something big hairy late at night, which although injured may be making a lot of noise (or it has relatives nearby who do) does provide a basic explanation for why no attempts were made to recover a body - and here I am really speaking about cases where the driver suspects they hit a BF, still could have been bear or other animal - in any case the driver did not stay around to identify the animal or its' condition after the impact.

Shock from being confronted with something they may have believed impossible only a minute before is a likely culprit as well for explaining why people act teh way do in the immediate aftermath of the collision.

Edited December 16, 2010 by infoman

[masterbarber]

It certainly is curious, but it is also, to me at least, curious that hunters are sometimes not able to find animals they successfully shoot but do not take down on the spot. These animals in many cases do eventually succumb to the injury from the shot, but they may run so far as to not be recoverable. They leave blood trails, as have some reported BF/car collisions, but a combination of terrain, vegetation, fences, etc., ultimately prevent the body from being recovered. The body is then subject to opportunistic scavenging and disappears, like the vast majority of all animal deaths in the wild.

Not trying to be funny, but how far would any animal get if it were hit with a 2000+ pound bullet?

Also, The BF/car collisions I remembered occured in roadcrossing situations with the animal occasionally knocked off the road (as in down an embankment). As I said before, to someone who does not believe in the animal, who strikes something big hairy late at night, which although injured may be making a lot of noise (or it has relatives nearby who do) does provide a basic explanation for why no attempts were made to recover a body - and here I am really speaking about cases where the driver suspects they hit a BF, still could have been bear or other animal - in any case the driver did not stay around to identify the animal or its' condition after the impact.

I would have to assert that most reasonable folks will stop after striking an object in a vehicle.

a) To gather their faculties

b)To find out what they struck

c) Inspect their own vehicle for damage

d) Render aid if applicable or just to call the Police

any of these are reasonable actions after the initial disorientation of an accident...

More so than a "Keep on truckin' " sort of motorist.

Could someone hit an object or wildlife and keep going? Of course, but I believe that to be a very small percentage of folk.

Edited December 16, 2010 by masterbarber

[Guest vilnoori]

Are you setting up for a big reveal, like there are no walrus roadkills or something? Maybe you're planning to play the subspecies card . . .

Of native, terrestrial vertebrates > 50 kg extant in the U.S. and southern Canada that occur in roaded areas, I cannot think of any exceptions. It's possible that something Dall sheep or desert bighorn or bison are unconfirmed; I don't know about the degree to which these mammals are distributed near roads. But coyotes, wolves, cougars, bears, javelina, deer, elk, moose, bighorn - even mountain goat - all are roadkill victims.

Where are you getting your data? Gosh some enterprising zoologist should be getting onto that prime source of research material. Guilt free, too.