Creature Suit Analysis - Part 8 - Neck Hackles

[Guest Texas Bigfoot]

Given the level of technology and detail you are talking about, isn't it just easier to believe that it's a real animal, rather than believe that an out-of-work cowboy could understand any of this, much less build a suit for an unknown primate using all of these materials? There was no internet then, how would you even find a manufacterer located in say, Framingham, Mass., if you were in Northern California and didn't even know they existed? These are B2B enterprises that don't advertise in the local Yellow Pages, or local newspaper, and there were no national papers then.

When this conspiracy is completed Roger Patterson will have to be the greatest evil genius of all time just to have pulled it off.

[Guest longtabber PE]

Given the level of technology and detail you are talking about, isn't it just easier to believe that it's a real animal, rather than believe that an out-of-work cowboy could understand any of this, much less build a suit for an unknown primate using all of these materials? There was no internet then, how would you even find a manufacterer located in say, Framingham, Mass., if you were in Northern California and didn't even know they existed? These are B2B enterprises that don't advertise in the local Yellow Pages, or local newspaper, and there were no national papers then.

When this conspiracy is completed Roger Patterson will have to be the greatest evil genius of all time just to have pulled it off.

>>>Given the level of technology and detail you are talking about, isn't it just easier to believe that it's a real animal,

Theres a big difference between the level of technology to make fabric and the skills needed to make a suit. No one is charging anyone with actually making the fabric. As to "belief" sure its easier but far less accurate.

>>>rather than believe that an out-of-work cowboy could understand any of this,

First, just because Patterson was a cowboy doesnt mean he is void of intelligence, doesnt have imagination or creativity or the basic technical skills the average male of the day had.

>>>much less build a suit for an unknown primate using all of these materials?

None of these materials are hard to work with. Making a suit ( as far as the techniques) are no different than someone going to a fabric shop, buying a pattern and bolt- pinning/cutting and sewing. ( at that point its a case of how good you are)- I dont see any of that as being prohibitivly complex.

>>>There was no internet then, how would you even find a manufacterer located in say, Framingham, Mass., if you were in Northern California and didn't even know they existed? These are B2B enterprises that don't advertise in the local Yellow Pages, or local newspaper, and there were no national papers then.

The same way we did it BEFORE the internet. Look in magazines, trade pubs, call stores/outlets and ask questions. For that matter- just look at the box or tag for a fur horse blanket or spread for the manufacturer info and call the operator for a phone #. Its worked for decades.

[Guest]

I've just got to join the chorus and say that, regardless of any conclusions drawn, this series of threads has been the best discussion I've ever seen on this board or many others.

The information and the debate have been exemplary. Reading these threads has been absolutley riveting, despite the fact I've never really been concerned about the PG film either way.

Thank you everybody, and thank you Bill for starting all of this.

[Guest OklahomaSquatch]

Okie

Were you suggesting/hoping that the "hackles" were raised in some frames and not in others, thereby indicating a physiological reaction to an aggression response? I wondered the same thing...but didn't have the courage to bring it up. Thanks

K

Well, I wouldn't call it suggesting or hoping so much as it was inquiring. Not that it would be an unarguable case either way since we can't see individual hairs raising or lowering. But yes, the idea was that if we could find earlier or later frames where the "hackles" were not raised, this would be a naturally occurring item, and certainly not the result of an on site hair groomer.

The problem being, if my understanding is correct, that the basis of the notion of the hairs being raised is based on the color patterns and reflective properties of the hair. Which I totally agree with, but it doesn't show actual individual hairs being raised which would be demanded if anyone were to claim they raise and lower on their own due to an instinctive animal reaction to fear. I guess perhaps we could look for changes in color pattern and reflectiveness of light in that given area to support/disprove that theory, but then it could be argued that it was just a change of angle to the sun or that it's just part of the film processing, or some other argumentative dribble.

[Guest Texas Bigfoot]

I'm not saying he wasn't intelligent, just not skilled or educated in these areas. It would take a lot of time and effort to pull this together, to have access to these materials, he'd need to be in the business in the first place. There is no evidence that he was. I'm not saying he couldn't do it, I saying there are other more reasonable conclusions.

But hey, what do I know. He could have gotten the materials from Eastern Europe after a secret flight to Budapest on a U2 spy plane. Could have. Sure, unlikely, but IT'S POSSIBLE!

[Guest]

Given the level of technology and detail you are talking about, isn't it just easier to believe that it's a real animal, rather than believe that an out-of-work cowboy could understand any of this, much less build a suit for an unknown primate using all of these materials? There was no internet then, how would you even find a manufacterer located in say, Framingham, Mass., if you were in Northern California and didn't even know they existed? These are B2B enterprises that don't advertise in the local Yellow Pages, or local newspaper, and there were no national papers then.

When this conspiracy is completed Roger Patterson will have to be the greatest evil genius of all time just to have pulled it off.

Sorry, but I have to agree with Texas Bigfoot here.. Its starting to sound more and more like while a suit may be possible - the process one must go through, is more time consuming and expensive ---- whats the point.

I have both my feet on one side of this fence, for the first time in a very long time.

[Guest longtabber PE]

I'm not saying he wasn't intelligent, just not skilled or educated in these areas. It would take a lot of time and effort to pull this together, to have access to these materials, he'd need to be in the business in the first place. There is no evidence that he was. I'm not saying he couldn't do it, I saying there are other more reasonable conclusions.

But hey, what do I know. He could have gotten the materials from Eastern Europe after a secret flight to Budapest on a U2 spy plane. Could have. Sure, unlikely, but IT'S POSSIBLE!

>>>I'm not saying he wasn't intelligent, just not skilled or educated in these areas.

Its hard to speculate on what someone knows or is aware of ( not even accounting for the ability to obtain new skills) Also, ( depending on what account one believes) theres the realistic possibility that Patterson personally didnt have a hand in making the said suit.

>>>I'm not saying he couldn't do it, I saying there are other more reasonable conclusions.

But hey, what do I know. He could have gotten the materials from Eastern Europe after a secret flight to Budapest on a U2 spy plane. Could have. Sure, unlikely, but IT'S POSSIBLE!

True its possible he got them from behind the Iron Curtain but a more "reasonable" conclusion would be to believe he either went to a fabric shop and asked or used some of his contacts and maybe they knew of places. ( especially if he isnt the actual tailor- someone who did work with similar industries would probably know and maybe built the suit- if in fact it is one)

[Guest OklahomaSquatch]

Ok, I have a couple questions that would probably relate more to a previous thread, but I'll ask them here.

Let's say they got this wonderful and flexible material, and were able to get hair woven into it, or whatever. For the fabric to form around the individual muscle shapes, wouldn't it have to be extremely thin, thus causing it to become fragile? If it were pulled tight enough to give the appearance of skin or hide, wouldn't it just flatten out the underlying pads, and not have creases between the muscle shapes? While the mime was in motion, wouldn't the overlaid fabric just slide around on top of the underlying suit? To prevent this from happening, if they used some sort of adhesive to bond the outer fabric to the underlying padding, wouldn't this cause obvious bunching during movement? Would they have sewn individual patches or seams around each independent muscle to keep this from happening, and wouldn't that be fairly obvious on film? I'm fairly certain this has been covered, but I just want to make sure I'm clear on it. Thanks.

Matt

[Guest Crowlogic]

I hope I can add a telling expierence I had concerning the availability of product and an entire specialist field of interest being unaware that such product existed.

I've been known to dabble in old British cars with a passion for Jaguars. In the mid 1980's I undertook the restoration of an early 1950's Jaguar Sprots car XK-140. When the time came to rebuild the transmission I learned from several Jaguar restoration parts specialists that the bearings for that car were no longer available. So I gathered up my bearings and brought them into the local bearing supply house and placed them on the counter and simply asked if they could supply me with bearings like the ones I had. The clerk measured them went in the back and 2 minutes later came out with brand new bearings. I was stunned. She (yes she) laughed and said nothing to it we have dozens of these models. I then explained that all of the specialists said they no longer were available. The answer was we have the bearings because we're in the bearing business and the people who told you that the bearings don't exist are in the Auto parts business. Such a situation could have existed with the stretch fur in the late 60's.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Crowlogic

[Guest longtabber PE]

Sorry, but I have to agree with Texas Bigfoot here.. Its starting to sound more and more like while a suit may be possible - the process one must go through, is more time consuming and expensive ---- whats the point.

I have both my feet on one side of this fence, for the first time in a very long time.

Maybe i'm looking at this thru different eyes but now knowing the price of knit back then plus the other stuff for padding etc- that suit ( materials) probably didnt exceed $100- the rest would be labor. Those raw materials were not expensive.

I dont see a great amount of time ( a few hours here and there in a shop for a month or so- its not like he had a deadline to meet) Maybe 40-80 actual work hours- I dont see that as a show stopper or insurmountable challenge.

as to the process- whats difficult about that? one cuts foam with a hot knife ( make it look however you want)- get a dress makers dummy or fashion a frame from 2x4s- buy a pattern to see how to make shirts/pants ( redraw them to whatever size you want) and start cutting/fitting.

I dont see all this outrageous cost/labor/skill or secret unknowable process that makes building a suit so "impossible" an endeavor.

Theres also 1 problem whoever made the suit ( assuming it was one) did NOT have to face ( and this is important in a suit analysis) At the time the PGF was made- there was no photorecord of another alleged BF so this suit maker didnt have anything to "meet" in regard to prior images because whatever he made was going to "become" the standard.

I know I'm in the minority on this but in reality theres no great expense in material cost/labor or rocket science skill necessary to have done this. It just aint there.

I hope I can add a telling expierence I had concerning the availability of product and an entire specialist field of interest being unaware that such product existed.

I've been known to dabble in old British cars with a passion for Jaguars. In the mid 1980's I undertook the restoration of an early 1950's Jaguar Sprots car XK-140. When the time came to rebuild the transmission I learned from several Jaguar restoration parts specialists that the bearings for that car were no longer available. So I gathered up my bearings and brought them into the local bearing supply house and placed them on the counter and simply asked if they could supply me with bearings like the ones I had. The clerk measured them went in the back and 2 minutes later came out with brand new bearings. I was stunned. She (yes she) laughed and said nothing to it we have dozens of these models. I then explained that all of the specialists said they no longer were available. The answer was we have the bearings because we're in the bearing business and the people who told you that the bearings don't exist are in the Auto parts business. Such a situation could have existed with the stretch fur in the late 60's.

Thank you- you just illustrated my entire premise. Just go and ask.

[Guest soarwing]

.......

Theres also 1 problem whoever made the suit ( assuming it was one) did NOT have to face ( and this is important in a suit analysis) At the time the PGF was made- there was no photorecord of another alleged BF so this suit maker didnt have anything to "meet" in regard to prior images because whatever he made was going to "become" the standard.....

I know I'm in the minority on this but in reality theres no great expense in material cost/labor or rocket science skill necessary to have done this. It just aint there.....

- - -

Then why do the MODERN and deliberate attempts to mimick the PGF look so terrible - when the would-be duplicators DO have a standard to measure and copy? Why do other alleged bigfoot films generate ZERO controversy by comparison? Even the recreation attempt by the "man who wore the suit" was so bad that I laughed out loud. Not even hardened skeptics of the PGF can watch it without a giggle or a cringe.

Even Dfoot, the Hollywood insider with apparent access to "suit secrets" of old, conspicuously avoided making any legitimate attempt. Why would this be if there's no great expense, skill or labor involved? Suits/films much worse than the PGF have fetched large sums of money and dandy profits - The Manitoba video being a prime example of that.

Seems that we'd be drowning in PGF's by now if it is as easy as you make it sound.

Edited February 5, 2008 by soarwing

[Guest longtabber PE]

- - -

Then why do the MODERN and deliberate attempts to mimick the PGF look so terrible - when the would-be duplicators DO have a standard to measure and copy? Why do other alleged bigfoot films generate ZERO controversy by comparison? Even the recreation attempt by the "man who wore the suit" was so bad that I laughed out loud. Not even hardened skeptics of the PGF can watch it without a giggle or a cringe.

Even Dfoot, the Hollywood insider with apparent access to "suit secrets" of old, conspicuously avoided making any legitimate attempt. Why would this be if there's no great expense, skill or labor involved? Suits/films much worse than the PGF have fetched large sums of money and dandy profits - The Manitoba video being a prime example of that.

Seems that we'd be drowning in PGF's by now if it is as easy as you make it sound.

>>>Then why do the MODERN and deliberate attempts to mimick the PGF look so terrible - when the would-be duplicators DO have a standard to measure and copy?

You need to ask them- thats hardly a measurement to use to say it "cant" be done

See, the justification you are using is a true non sequitur reasoning.

All of these other "efforts" involve people with different budgets, skills, reasons, motives and the like. All of them different and are of no value whatsoever in ascertaining whether or not a goal can be accomplished.

I could build a car engine from scratch ( even down to casting the block) but does that mean an ASE mechanic could? No it doesnt.

That an apples to mailbox comparison.

Also, I didnt use the word "easy"- what i sad was it doesnt involve great expense, master skill or tons of money.

The fact that we are discussing a suit doesnt make "suit making' some super secret,secret clan knowing set of skills that only 50 years in a Shaolin Temple will give someone.

In my world- we design and build things every day- I dont see the problems.

If its a suit- its a garment- so one would expect anyone who does garments would have those skills as an example.

Of course it would take skills but it wouldnt take skills at a level that any reasonably technically capable person wouldnt have.

Maybe I'm not seeing it but what "skills' or level of expertise are there that would make replication so "impossible" The ability to sew? follow patterns? use common sense, personal initiative and a phone to buy materials?, cut/shape padding with a hot knife? make stuff out of latex?

[Guest]

>>> he did say however it has many of the characteristics and appearance of a knit ( looks textured from multipass, has the cling.flow and formability to bond to whatever is underneath) and that knit could have been "form fitted" either with a heat gun or a steam iron. ( which is how its normally shrunk or made pliable to take complex shapes) and some of those "denser' areas are a hallmark of that trait.

Once this stuff has been form fitted either with a heat gun or a steam iron, is it still as flexible as before?

[Guest longtabber PE]

Once this stuff has been form fitted either with a heat gun or a steam iron, is it still as flexible as before?

Certainly ( provided the heat isnt too much and actually damages it)

One other thing and maybe I didnt point it out well enough.

Be it knit, weave or a dozen other ways- the act of laying the pile is the "process"- the backing is usually determined by the end usage- they are 2 separate things.

Thats why the "process' can be applied to literally ANY substrate backing.

For example ( if you wanted to) you could put the pile ( fur) on cotton cloth and make a furry T shirt- you could put it on denim and make furry bluejeans. For that matter- if someone could make a strong enough needle set- you could put the fur on a 1" thick sheet of plywood. If you can punch it- you can pile it

[Guest Schilleville]

Great stuff guys, Long Tabber Bill, I appreciate how both of you handled the discrepancy and got together to come up with some conclusions.Inovation often comes from people removed from a particular field.

Now with that knowledge combined and presented...It's safe IMO to eliminate hollywood as being involved with this "hoax" in terms of the suit being made. So by some of the theories in here Patterson would have to have basically gotten info from Hollywood on how to make a suit, perhaps acquired some of the component, for example a mask, then bascially disregarded the info he received and gone in his own direction. Possible? sure... Likely....?