Bigfoot Dna

[kitakaze]

This is a very interesting proposal. It definately seperates the men from the boys. If I was passionate about Paulides's claims I would take the bet. However, anyone who buy's into a crazy massacre theory at Bluff Creek is not worth betting on.

On a side note, if I was going to make up a massacre theory at Bluff Creek, I would have given John Green and Patterson the Jesse the Body rotary cannon gun from the movie "Predator" and had them kill not one but two complete Bigfoot families. I wonder if Paulides would have liked that fable better then the current MK version?

But I digress..........

Nailed it. I predict nothing but crickets. I think this is simply because as much as some proponents that are flustered by skeptics would hate to admit it, they think I am right on this. I think this guy is a boonswoggler. I used to strongly believe in Bigfoot. I know how that feels to deeply have that passion and belief. I would not want some scheming schmoe to be getting my hopes up and stringing me along like a kitten. I think sensible Bigfooters will join me on this, while credulous Bigfooters will be challenged to lay it on the line.

[Guest vilnoori]

Well, Kit, no one here is going to lose anything by waiting to see. Just because Dr. Ketchum makes an estimate on when she thinks her paper will be out doesn't mean it's set in stone. For that matter, any time she has any doubts about her results, or even doesn't think they are going to be strong enough so she risks her reputation and that of her team, she is perfectly free to quit with no consequences other than general disappointment in the BF community.

Even if she should publish, I'm sure she knows she and her work will be raked fore and aft for many years until the data is collaborated. She would be joining a bunch of scientists who had similar experiences from their peers when they announced their discoveries, such as Raymond Dart (Taung Child), Robert Broom (Mrs./Mr. Ples), Johanson (Lucy), and quite recently, Morewood and the other discoverers of H. floresiensis. That's because ANY TIME a huge paradigm shift is made it takes a great deal of evidence, convincing, and powerful proponents backing it to change what is commonly accepted knowledge. Pick up any good text on the history of science and you'll find that out.

AND her being a vet rather than a genealogist is nothing that major. Many people who make earth shattering discoveries are mavericks, amateurs or mere students. The tenured profs are too busy teaching, administrating and toeing the line (er, protecting their tenure) while kicking out their requisite 2 to 3 papers on conventional science per year.

[kitakaze]

Even if she should publish, I'm sure she knows she and her work will be raked fore and aft for many years until the data is collaborated. She would be joining a bunch of scientists who had similar experiences from their peers when they announced their discoveries, such as Raymond Dart (Taung Child), Robert Broom (Mrs./Mr. Ples), Johanson (Lucy), and quite recently, Morewood and the other discoverers of H. floresiensis. That's because ANY TIME a huge paradigm shift is made it takes a great deal of evidence, convincing, and powerful proponents backing it to change what is commonly accepted knowledge. Pick up any good text on the history of science and you'll find that out.

It's Morwood, BTW. Mike Morwood. Sorry to nitpick. I'm a human evolution geek. H. floresiensis was a big, fat deal to me, and I have written about it extensively. Check it out if you like...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128690

Q: Did Mike Morwood have business associations with hoaxers and scammers?

[Guest ajciani]

I've known a lot of scammers and hoaxers. Many of them held the title of Distinguished Professor.

Yes, that's right, Distinguished Professors. How do you think they got to be DPs? By publishing (well, having their students publish) lots of papers (often reused two or three times each), and by getting lots of funding. How do they get lots of funding? With lots of BS. Sure, there are plenty of scientists who write well supported and reasoned proposals, and they get some funds every now and then, but the guys that have money flowing out of their ears, are the guys that wrote wonderful sounding, poorly supported BS (or who knew someone at the funding agency). Often, their projects end with less than inspiring results, spawning many publications which ultimately provide misleading information, and the claim that with the proper Phlebotinum, their ideas are sure to succeed, which is why they deserve another round of funding.

The pressure to publish papers is so great, that even though a project might not be completed, they publish, leading to multiple, nearly identical papers; later papers sometimes correcting the earlier ones. If a project was brought to a mediocre conclusion, they still publish, often over-hyping or over-stating their results. And yes, sometimes those BS papers end up in top-line journals, such as Nature and Science.

So why couldn't Ketchum publish in Nature or Science? If Ketchum's analysis ultimately proved to be wrong, or even a complete and utter hoax, it wouldn't be the first time for those journals, nor the last.

[kitakaze]

I would have thought most Bigfooters are sick of being screwed with by hoaxers and scammers, particularly ones with law enforcement backgrounds...

It would seem for some Bigfoot proponents here that the desire to rub proof of Bigfoot in the face of skeptics is so strong that it shorts out their critical thinking and common sense, and primes them for a second helping of duped pie...

I think all of Bigfootery should have learned by now the hard lesson the Georgia Boyz hoax taught that just because someone comes from a law enforcement background, it does not necessitate that they are honest. David Paulides plays the Woods & Wildmen game mean and dirty. Some Bigfooters know that, like this lady...

I have an unpopular message that brings a lot of heat and frustration from Bigfoot proponents. I am saying that there are no Bigfoots out there, only people screwing each other with hoaxing, backbiting, back room politics, and prestige obsession. I think there are some members of the BFF who are hopelessly prestige-obsessed and play the Woods & Wildmen game every bit as mean and dirty as Paulides. They will know who they are when they read this.

What I have that makes me an a bit outside among skeptics is that I was a strong believer and I have now a respect for certain people that hear my message and take it full on, yet they steel themselves for hard labours and keep going out to look for real proof of Bigfoot. I wish them all the best in trying to prove me wrong, but I am strongly convinced it will never happen. David Paulides, I think, is not one of those people. Whether it's Bigfoot museum and dalcimer legend Michael Rugg getting thrown under the bus or Bigfoot Books Steven Streufert, this guy is plowing through Bigfootery and making a big mess. You might think it weird that I would have anything in common with Bigfoot Books Steve, and I did think his nazi swastika BFF boycott thing was ridiculous, but he did something not long ago that I respected and he did call out Paulides. Sharon Lee (pictured above) was one of the first to do that and I commend her for it.This is the guy who said he independently from MK Davis originated the dippy Bluff Creek massacre guano. This is the guy who said that his first important hair sample that showed human and animal characteristics came from a Bigfoot that was rummaging through a woman's garbage at her home and when a police car showed up and it returned to the trees, the police officer still alive of the two that attended the alleged incident said he could feel the Bigfoot shaking the earth as it walked 100 yards away. What utter, utter gobbledy-****. Who on Earth falls for this nonsense? I can list off several, but they know who they are. This simply is hooey to me. If Bigfoot rummaged through peoples garbage and shook the Earth when it moved, and it lived literally in our own backyards, it would be one of the most studied species of animal on Earth.

I encourage the critically minded people in Bigfootery to not be fooled by Paulides and his empty promises. Biscardi would have us believe Bigfoot is H. erectus based on some boonswoggle claims about DNA. I have spoken at length about this in an interview with Biscardi and Java Bob on Bigfoot Live Radio. These men were very cordial and friendly, but never for a second did I not think there was some Woods & Wildmen shennanigans going on. Paulides, who along with Biscardi, does business with Ketchum, is telling us that we are months away from announcing Bigfoot to the world as a real species. I think it Georgia Boys all over again. Ketchum said in August that they were a month, maybe a little more, away from the Earth shaking (like Paulides' garbage rummaging Bigfoot) announcement. It's into October and there has been no announcements of, "Oops. Sorry, hotly anticipating Bigfoot community. We've had some complications and are going to be a bit longer than we said." I think Paulides will probably read this and make some sort of announcement on his website. I think what they want is for Bigfooters all over North America to send in worthless stuff and pay them money for DNA testing that never actually gets done. I think if they had a huge bone and they were legitimate, they could tell you very quicly whether the bone was human or otherwise, or untestable due to degraded DNA. They did no such thing, just danced around with words and optimistic yet vague assurances. I think on January 1st, 2011 I will be telling a number of people, "I told you so."

[Guest]

I encourage the critically minded people in Bigfootery to not be fooled by Paulides and his empty promises. Biscardi would have us believe Bigfoot is H. erectus based on some boonswoggle claims about DNA. I have spoken at length about this in an interview with Biscardi and Java Bob on Bigfoot Live Radio. These men were very cordial and friendly, but never for a second did I not think there was some Woods & Wildmen shennanigans going on. Paulides, who along with Biscardi, does business with Ketchum, is telling us that we are months away from announcing Bigfoot to the world as a real species. I think it Georgia Boys all over again. Ketchum said in August that they were a month, maybe a little more, away from the Earth shaking (like Paulides' garbage rummaging Bigfoot) announcement. It's into October and there has been no announcements of, "Oops. Sorry, hotly anticipating Bigfoot community. We've had some complications and are going to be a bit longer than we said." I think Paulides will probably read this and make some sort of announcement on his website. I think what they want is for Bigfooters all over North America to send in worthless stuff and pay them money for DNA testing that never actually gets done. I think if they had a huge bone and they were legitimate, they could tell you very quicly whether the bone was human or otherwise, or untestable due to degraded DNA. They did no such thing, just danced around with words and optimistic yet vague assurances. I think on January 1st, 2011 I will be telling a number of people, "I told you so."

back to your scorched earth posting Kit? isnt this the same thing you were trying to do with Patterson and Gimlin? guilt by association? that fact of the matter is , you are also associated with Biscardi, since you did a show or 2 with him, so why should we listen to your word as well? wernt you "touched" by the biscardi germs too?

I have read all your posts Kit, and its nothing new, same ole M.O. , but what I really dont understand is why you are putting a time limit on Ms. Ketchums work? you arent doing the report yourself, so you cant possibly know the time frame....why dont you wait till it comes out before you start to criticize?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/criticize

right now all you are doing is criticizing thin air, you have nothing at all, its a one sided argument, wait for the report Kit and then go to town......

this is a suckers bet, as usual, unless we know the timeline of the report then ANY bets are futile......

Ketchum has a lab and a business, if I were you it might behoove you to read some of the laws of the word LIBEL......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

we dont want to lose a good posting buddy here do we Kit?

now my last statement deals with motivation....why pray tell are you so HOT on this subject now and not your other thread concerning the PGF? could it be that IF she might prove something with her testing, that the PGF will no longer matter as much? making your documentary a kinda MOOT point?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moot

I for one will wait past Jan 1 , 2011 , I just want to see what she has found , thats all.........

have a nice day Kit!!!

[Guest]

I've known a lot of scammers and hoaxers. Many of them held the title of Distinguished Professor.

Yes, that's right, Distinguished Professors. How do you think they got to be DPs? By publishing (well, having their students publish) lots of papers (often reused two or three times each), and by getting lots of funding. How do they get lots of funding? With lots of BS. Sure, there are plenty of scientists who write well supported and reasoned proposals, and they get some funds every now and then, but the guys that have money flowing out of their ears, are the guys that wrote wonderful sounding, poorly supported BS (or who knew someone at the funding agency). Often, their projects end with less than inspiring results, spawning many publications which ultimately provide misleading information, and the claim that with the proper Phlebotinum, their ideas are sure to succeed, which is why they deserve another round of funding.

The pressure to publish papers is so great, that even though a project might not be completed, they publish, leading to multiple, nearly identical papers; later papers sometimes correcting the earlier ones. If a project was brought to a mediocre conclusion, they still publish, often over-hyping or over-stating their results. And yes, sometimes those BS papers end up in top-line journals, such as Nature and Science.

So why couldn't Ketchum publish in Nature or Science? If Ketchum's analysis ultimately proved to be wrong, or even a complete and utter hoax, it wouldn't be the first time for those journals, nor the last.

AJ, I am not sure SAS is going to agree with this post dude.......It will be interesting if he decides to weigh in on it......I happen to think you are correct on some of the items.....

[Guest]

AJ, I am not sure SAS is going to agree with this post dude.......It will be interesting if he decides to weigh in on it......I happen to think you are correct on some of the items.....

If you're referring to me I'll weigh in, but it might not be that interesting. Of course ajciani is correct, and there have been several notable cases of scientists fabricating data and analysis - even some that made it into our top journals.

[kitakaze]

I think everyone here with even only a passing interest in genetics and the science of DNA should watch the following documentary on the paradigm shift of epigenetics and the revolution happening in the understanding of genetic inheritance...

Here is the wiki entry on the subject...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

At it's core is the observations that our DNA is not simply passed from one generation to the next, our environment and experience actually can imprint themselves on our genome and have effects that last for generations. The whole naivete in the optimism of the 1990's with the Human Genome Project and the idea we could break the code for the human being is only now beginning to make itself apparent. Th Human Genome Project was not an end, but rather only a beginning. Humans have rather than the hundreds of thousands of genes we predicted, only around 30,000. We are genetically less complex than many plants and even bacteria. It is through epigenetics that we can begin to try and understand the complexity of the human organism.

Is Bigfoot H. erectus as Tom Biscardi's website claims? Is Bigfoot a human with a genetic condition? I say no. I think Bigfoot is a social construct no different than alien abduction or Reptoids or Dogman. Bigfootery is rife with people who also believe in alien visitation and things like Dogman. This is something I refer to as fortean addiction: The proclivity and need to believe in the fortean. Rare genetic conditions can give you hypertrichosis and other such abnormal conditions. Going from that to Patty and the Myakka skunk ape is a totally different story. The idea that two humans can conceive, a genetic marker switches off or on, and boom you have Patty McLumpy is too far gone for me. Genetic disorders can cause some unbelievable and scary things. Harlequin-type icthyosis is a good example. Genes being switched on and off can do things like this...

(warning: disfiguring genetic disorder photo)

But the following?...

I think not. Also, having a breeding population across America and Canada of a bunch of people all with the same genetic disorder going on goes into the realm of the ludicrous.

[Guest nycBig]

below is the story King Solomon Stone hoax. A team of respected scientists were easily duped because they wanted so badly to believe the stone was genuine. Even scientists can be bias in their judgement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/solomon_prog_summary.shtml

[Guest nycBig]

I've known a lot of scammers and hoaxers. Many of them held the title of Distinguished Professor.

Yes, that's right, Distinguished Professors. How do you think they got to be DPs? By publishing (well, having their students publish) lots of papers (often reused two or three times each), and by getting lots of funding. How do they get lots of funding? With lots of BS. Sure, there are plenty of scientists who write well supported and reasoned proposals, and they get some funds every now and then, but the guys that have money flowing out of their ears, are the guys that wrote wonderful sounding, poorly supported BS (or who knew someone at the funding agency). Often, their projects end with less than inspiring results, spawning many publications which ultimately provide misleading information, and the claim that with the proper Phlebotinum, their ideas are sure to succeed, which is why they deserve another round of funding.

The pressure to publish papers is so great, that even though a project might not be completed, they publish, leading to multiple, nearly identical papers; later papers sometimes correcting the earlier ones. If a project was brought to a mediocre conclusion, they still publish, often over-hyping or over-stating their results. And yes, sometimes those BS papers end up in top-line journals, such as Nature and Science.

So why couldn't Ketchum publish in Nature or Science? If Ketchum's analysis ultimately proved to be wrong, or even a complete and utter hoax, it wouldn't be the first time for those journals, nor the last.

This kind of fraud is true and often include experimenting on live animals to make it sound more legit. Thousands of animals suffer in experiments which from the start never had any intention of proving anything or advancing science. It is a big money making fraud. There is so much duplication and waste with no accountabilty at all.

[indiefoot]

I encourage the critically minded people in Bigfootery to not be fooled by Paulides and his empty promises. Biscardi would have us believe Bigfoot is H. erectus based on some boonswoggle claims about DNA. I have spoken at length about this in an interview with Biscardi and Java Bob on Bigfoot Live Radio. These men were very cordial and friendly, but never for a second did I not think there was some Woods & Wildmen shennanigans going on. Paulides, who along with Biscardi, does business with Ketchum, is telling us that we are months away from announcing Bigfoot to the world as a real species. I think it Georgia Boys all over again. Ketchum said in August that they were a month, maybe a little more, away from the Earth shaking (like Paulides' garbage rummaging Bigfoot) announcement. It's into October and there has been no announcements of, "Oops. Sorry, hotly anticipating Bigfoot community. We've had some complications and are going to be a bit longer than we said." I think Paulides will probably read this and make some sort of announcement on his website. I think what they want is for Bigfooters all over North America to send in worthless stuff and pay them money for DNA testing that never actually gets done. I think if they had a huge bone and they were legitimate, they could tell you very quicly whether the bone was human or otherwise, or untestable due to degraded DNA. They did no such thing, just danced around with words and optimistic yet vague assurances. I think on January 1st, 2011 I will be telling a number of people, "I told you so."

Bolding Mine

Kitekazi,

Help me here if I am not reading this correctly, are you are accusing Dr Ketchum of being a participant in a conspiracy to commit felony fraud. It wouldn't take very many samples at 200 dollars a pop to get to the felony requirements in most states. I assume you have evidence of this crime or you would not accuse them of it on a public forum.

BTW, I assume Dr. Ketchum and her attorneys would be interested in reading this particular post.

[Drew]

Bolding Mine

Kitekazi,

Help me here if I am not reading this correctly, are you are accusing Dr Ketchum of being a participant in a conspiracy to commit felony fraud. It wouldn't take very many samples at 200 dollars a pop to get to the felony requirements in most states. I assume you have evidence of this crime or you would not accuse them of it on a public forum.

BTW, I assume Dr. Ketchum and her attorneys would be interested in reading this particular post.

I think... that says it is an opinion. Opinions are still allowed aren't they? I think Walmart is AWESOME, I think Walmart is a criminal cabal... etc...

[indiefoot]

I think... that says it is an opinion. Opinions are still allowed aren't they? I think Walmart is AWESOME, I think Walmart is a criminal cabal... etc...

I would imagine it would depend on what a Judge "thinks" or on a legal "opinion".

It sounds to me like a specific allegation of wrongdoing by an individual against an individual.

[Guest vilnoori]

It's Morwood, BTW. Mike Morwood. Sorry to nitpick. I'm a human evolution geek. H. floresiensis was a big, fat deal to me, and I have written about it extensively. Check it out if you like...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=128690

Q: Did Mike Morwood have business associations with hoaxers and scammers?

No, he didn't, but some of the above did, since many were associates and students of the British bunch (such as Sir Arthur Keith) that "discovered" Piltdown Man and other hoaxed or mistaken hominid fossils which were held in high regard for at least 40 years (for some, even more). Direct association, Kit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Piltdownpainting.jpg