Can Bigfoot Speak?

[Guest Transformer]

^Pitch can be varied by the length of the vocal tract as well as the vocal fold.

[southernyahoo]

Do you have any reference data on that?A link maybe?

[georgerm]

Wow, one minute in and he's already talking nonsense. The testing that he refers to was reported on by Dr. Grover Krantz in his book Big Footprints (page 134).

Here's what Dr. Krantz wrote over 20 years ago:

"One of the most widely publicized sound recordings was supposedly made at a remote hunting camp in the Sierra Nevada Mountains in California, the location of which was known to only the hunters who used it. They brought in another man who taped a long sequence of noises that were quite unlike any other reported sasquatch sounds. None of them claimed to have seen the creatures, but they did show me photographs of numerous tracks in the snow at the camp. These were some of the most obviously faked tracks that I have ever seen. The tape was analyzed by some university sound specialists who determined that a human voice could not have made them; they required a much longer vocal tract. A sasquatch investigator later asked one of these experts if a human could imitate the sound characteristics by simply cupping his hands around his mouth. The answer was yes. I do not know what these recordings actually represent, but given the circumstances they do not seem to merit any further investigation."

So when Mr. Nelson says things like, "and he proved that these sounds were coming from registers the human voice cannot reach"(00:53-01:00)... and "so we know that it's not human" (1:06)... he's not being intellectually honest.

RayG

Ray, Scott Nelson is a distinguished language expert with an impressive resume that you can read below. I doubt that he would associate with hunters who travel several miles up the Sierra mountains on foot to a camp only to be fooled by someone sitting in the brush cupping his hands making BF calls. He was invited to investigate the site and was amazed with BF language. Would he risk his reputation unless he was certain a real primate was using language?

Google more of Nelson's seminars and get the facts before condeming an honorable man.

R. Scott Nelson

Curriculum Vitae

Eleven years on the Faculty of Philosophy and Languages at Wentworth College,

Lexington, Missouri; teaching Russian, Persian and Spanish as well several Philosophy and Religion courses.

Retired U.S. Navy Cryptologic Technician Interpreter (Crypto-Linguist), worked for Naval Intelligence at the following duty stations: Naval Security Group Activity (NSGA), Rota, Spain; Naval Security Group Detachment Galeta Island, Panama; NSGA Homestead, Florida; NSGA Edzell, Scotland and aboard the following afloat units: USS Coronado, USS Belknap, USS Deyo, USS Bigelow, USS Sphynx; serving in the Atlantic Ocean, Indian Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea and Persian Gulf.

Two time graduate of the Defense Language Institute, Foreign Language Center, Monterey, California (Russian and Spanish).

Two time graduate of the U.S. Navy Cryptologic Voice Transcription School at Naval Security Group Detachment (NSGD), San Angelo, Texas (Russian and Spanish).

Graduate of U.S. Navy Communications Intelligence Analysis and Reporting School at NSGD, San Angelo, Texas.

Acquired the Persian Language while assigned to afloat platforms in the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf. These platforms had Persian as their primary target language.

Logged thousands of hours of collection and transcription of voice communications as a Cryptologic Interpreter for the U.S. Navy.

[Guest]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mr. Nelson get involved with these like over 20 years after they were recorded? Could you clarify when you say he was invited to investigate the site? If he only had the tapes to work with, how would he know who exactly the Samurai was?

Edited July 26, 2012 by arizonabigfoot

[Guest Transformer]

Do you have any reference data on that?A link maybe?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/vocres.html

After reading the overview click on the "Cavity Resonance" to the following:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/cavity.html#c1

The "Cavity Resonance" effect in a human vocal tract on pitch is small but it is still there. The most notable aspect of the vocal tract is the timbre.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Transformer

[Guest RayG]

I think Mr. Nelson was talking about voice range "pitch" not the vocal tract length estimates.

And? What, that somehow proves the sounds were inhuman? That we know that these sounds are non-human?

Here, I'll highlight the important bit this time -- A sasquatch investigator later asked one of these experts if a human could imitate the sound characteristics by simply cupping his hands around his mouth. The answer was yes.

So it doesn't appear to matter whether Mr. Nelson is talking about pitch or vocal tract lengths, the sound characteristics could be imitated by a human cupping their hands around their mouth.

Ray, Scott Nelson is a distinguished language expert with an impressive resume that you can read below.

I've read his resume. Please explain what parts I'm supposed to be impressed with. He knows two or three languages. Good for him. Ever hear of Peter Ustinov? He was fluent in English, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Russian.

He worked for Military Intelligence. He's not the only one. I spent nearly a decade in Signals Intelligence, working alongside crypto-linguists, and was even pressed into duty as a crypto-linguist myself for a few months. What qualifications or experience do you have to either praise or condemn his resume or his conclusions regarding the Sierra Sounds?

I doubt that he would associate with hunters who travel several miles up the Sierra mountains on foot to a camp only to be fooled by someone sitting in the brush cupping his hands making BF calls.

Since when did Nelson associate with the hunters who obtained the original recordings? Was he present either during the original recording of the Sierra Sounds or the subsequent testing at the University of Wyoming? I think you're confusing the heck out of the facts.

Would he risk his reputation unless he was certain a real primate was using language?

What reputation? He's not giving these presentations to actual linguists, he's giving them to bigfoot advocates.

Google more of Nelson's seminars and get the facts before condeming an honorable man.

Have you spoken to any actual linguists about his work? What was their opinion?

RayG

[Guest]

Bigfoot speaks!? Let me know when he starts making tools.

[Guest Peter O.]

^LOL. That still wouldn't mean BF is a "dumb ape", after all it can be very stealthy without language.

But yeah, I agree with Ray's assessment above. No one was arguing that Nelson is not good at what he does, I think.

[Guest poignant]

Bigfoot speaks!? Let me know when he starts making tools.

Great apes (chimps, gorillas, orangs) have already been documented making tools (FYI).

If you really want to throw it in the mix, BF probably wood knock with a large branch. So yes, BF are tool-users.

Edited July 26, 2012 by poignant

[southernyahoo]

And? What, that somehow proves the sounds were inhuman? That we know that these sounds are non-human?

Here, I'll highlight the important bit this time -- A sasquatch investigator later asked one of these experts if a human could imitate the sound characteristics by simply cupping his hands around his mouth. The answer was yes.

So it doesn't appear to matter whether Mr. Nelson is talking about pitch or vocal tract lengths, the sound characteristics could be imitated by a human cupping their hands around their mouth.

RayG

I might not appear to matter when you've taken things out of context. Cupping the hands would affect the acoustic measurements associated with vocal tract length but not pitch, which is mostly dependent on the rate the vocal foldsd are vibrating. The registers Nelson speaks of could also play a part in pitch but not so much in the measurements in vocal tract length unless those , like the larynx can move up and down in the throat.

[Guest RayG]

Ok, I'll bite. I know Kirlin got his findings published in the bigfoot book Manlike Monsters on Trial: Early Records and Modern Evidence, but in what scientific journals did his Estimates of Pitch and Vocal Tract length from Recorded Vocalizations of Purported Bigfoot get published?

RayG

Edited July 26, 2012 by RayG

[southernyahoo]

Ray my point is that "pitch" is affected by what is vibrating in the vocal tract, and cupping the hands around the mouth can affect the relative intensity of the formants and skew vocal tract length estimates. Cupping hands around the mouth does not account for all observations made about the vocalizations. Trying to shift the debate from this misunderstanding between the researcher and the expert to "where is it published" isn't honest debate.

In this below link, you will see that vocal tract length estimates are not dependent on pitch but the resonant frequencies relationships to each other, changes in pitch only moves them up or down the scale of frequency. The formant number, speed of sound,vocal tract lenght, and formant values are used in the formula. If you don't have a known length of vocal tract, you can calculate it with the other three factors, assuming there is no other tampering.

http://www.languagebits.com/phonetics-english/resonant-frequencies-and-vocal-tract-length/

Here's a link about speech perception

http://www.purveslab.net/publications/schwarrtz_purves_pitch.pdf

Just had to quote this

The perception of pitch is central to both language

and music, two acoustically mediated forms of expression

found in every human population. In language, the

tonal quality of speech serves both lexical and indexical

functions, conveying a speaker’s emotional state, communicative

intent

Here's a link that covers registers the Nelson alludes to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_voice

And relevant quote

Vocal registration refers to the system of vocal registers within the human voice. A register in the human voice is a particular series of tones, produced in the same vibratory pattern of the vocal folds, and possessing the same quality. Registers originate in laryngeal functioning. They occur because the vocal folds are capable of producing several different vibratory patterns. Each of these vibratory patterns appears within a particular Vocal range range of pitches and produces certain characteristic sounds.[13] the term register can be somewhat confusing as it encompasses several aspects of the human voice. The term register can be used to refer to any of the following:[14]

A particular part of the vocal range such as the upper, middle, or lower registers.

A resonance area such as chest voice or head voice.

A phonatory process.

A certain vocal timbre.

A region of the voice that is defined or delimited by vocal breaks.

A subset of a language used for a particular purpose or in a particular social setting.

[georgerm]

He worked for Military Intelligence. He's not the only one. I spent nearly a decade in Signals Intelligence, working alongside crypto-linguists, and was even pressed into duty as a crypto-linguist myself for a few months. What qualifications or experience do you have to either praise or condemn his resume or his conclusions regarding the Sierra Sounds?

Thank-you for serving our country. I can only depend on experts like yourself to state their opinions. Read more on the Sierra Sounds.

"The 1978 year-long study by Professor R. Lynn Kirlin, University of Wyoming, states that these creatures have a vocal capability exceeding that of the humans. More recently, in 2008, another year-long study was made by a Crypto-Linguistic team headed by R. Scott Nelson and a complex language was discovered."

Since when did Nelson associate with the hunters who obtained the original recordings? Was he present either during the original recording of the Sierra Sounds or the subsequent testing at the University of Wyoming? I think you're confusing the heck out of the facts.

What reputation? He's not giving these presentations to actual linguists, he's giving them to bigfoot advocates.

Have you spoken to any actual linguists about his work? What was their opinion?

RayG

[georgerm]

I'm reposting to make my words noticeable.

Posted Today, 08:50 AM

RayG, on 25 July 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

He worked for Military Intelligence. He's not the only one. I spent nearly a decade in Signals Intelligence, working alongside crypto-linguists, and was even pressed into duty as a crypto-linguist myself for a few months. What qualifications or experience do you have to either praise or condemn his resume or his conclusions regarding the Sierra Sounds?

Thank-you for serving our country. I can only depend on experts like yourself to state their opinions. Read more on the Sierra Sounds.

"The 1978 year-long study by Professor R. Lynn Kirlin, University of Wyoming, states that these creatures have a vocal capability exceeding that of the humans. More recently, in 2008, another year-long study was made by a Crypto-Linguistic team headed by R. Scott Nelson and a complex language was discovered."

Since when did Nelson associate with the hunters who obtained the original recordings? Was he present either during the original recording of the Sierra Sounds or the subsequent testing at the University of Wyoming? I think you're confusing the heck out of the facts.

He was invited to stay at the camp by Ron Moorhead, the producer of the Sierra Sounds CD.

[Guest RayG]

Ray my point is that "pitch"....<snip>

And my most recent point is that if Dr. Kirlin had truly produced something worthwhile, he would have had it published in a reputable journal, not a bigfoot book.

My point before that, was that 20 years ago a simple question showed how woefully easy it would be to alter sound characteristics.

And my point before that, was that a crypto-linguist is simply not qualified to make definitive pronouncements about languages they are not trained in. (A PhD in linguistics also concluded it was beyond Nelson's area of expertise.)

Trying to shift the debate from this misunderstanding between the researcher and the expert to "where is it published" isn't honest debate.

No, I'm pointing out the enormous lack of evidence that is being trumped up as though it were meaningful. You can believe the Sierra Sounds accurately recorded bigfoot language if you wish, but I'll wait for something that doesn't require faith in people who aren't linguists, anthropologists, nor speech pathologists.

Read more on the Sierra Sounds.

What more should I read?

Have you read any of the following?

Bigfoot, by Slate and Berry (1976),

Big Footprints, by Dr. Grover Krantz (1992)

Manlike Monsters on Trial: Early Records and Modern Evidence, by Michael Ames/Marjorie Halpin, editors, (1987)

"The 1978 year-long study by Professor R. Lynn Kirlin, University of Wyoming, states that these creatures have a vocal capability exceeding that of the humans. More recently, in 2008, another year-long study was made by a Crypto-Linguistic team headed by R. Scott Nelson and a complex language was discovered."

You seem to be putting all your eggs in the Kirlin/Nelson basket, yet to my knowledge neither Dr. Kirlin nor Mr. Nelson have submitted anything to anyone other than bigfoot proponents. Why do you think that is?

He was invited to stay at the camp by Ron Moorhead, the producer of the Sierra Sounds CD.

Nearly 40 years after the fact.

If you take a turd and cover it in chocolate, you end up with a chocolate-covered turd, not an Oh Henry. Likewise, you can paint the Sierra Sounds in whatever fashion you wish, but it won't make them bigfoot vocals.

RayG