Missing 411

[Guest poignant]

Therefore the absence of pot growers in spite of SAR efforts indicates that something else is afoot.

[Guest operator]

but i have to ask why no bodys have never been found?if someone is mauled by a bear there would be some kind of remains.humans have rather large bones hard for them to be consumed by natural predetors.

[Guest BFSleuth]

It would depend on the location of the final resting place. If it is in thick understory you would never find the bones unless you knew exactly where to look, and after a year or two add some layers of leaves composting on top and you would need to dig to find any bones. If the location is up on a cliff face on a ledge, then it may be years or never that humans would ever go there for recreation. During SAR searches some of the most difficult terrain is ruled out simply because nobody would expect a person to climb up there all on his own, when you are doing a search you concentrate on grid areas but with very steep terrain some of that grid is simply not searched because of the very low probability that someone would actually be there (like very steep cliffs or very steep and deep river gorges).

I've never read a sighting report of BF making a kill then sitting down to make a meal on the spot. They always seem to make the kill then carry off their prize. There have been reports of potential boneyards or even stacked deer bodies, so it would seem they have a favorite dining area, maybe where the group comes back together to share the bounty.

[Guest]

Also, to piggyback on BFSleuth's post, when an area/grid is searched there is a probability of detection, or percentage assigned as to how well the area can be or was searched. If the area was difficult to search a lower number (percentage) is assigned to it, in that the team was less able to search it or had too few resources to detect a person in the area. A deep cavernous area would have less ability to be searched, less confidence in the search, lower probably of detection. It's the case too when you have too few resources, say few searchers in a larger area over a shorter amount of time (a hasty search likely has a lower probability of detection).

[Guest]

I'm getting the book.. I read about the 9 cross country skiiers and that got my attention. I didn't know there were so many people missing. Like, just vanishing. that would be a horrid thing to be on a hike, then turn around and your kid is gone. Just gone.... I believe that BF may have something to do with some disapearances. Just because there are old stories around of kids getting snatched in the dark if they wander off from their parents in the woods, etc. by monsters. Those stories are around for centuries. So, yeah. I beleive it. In other countries, I forget what one, but there are tales of monsters under bridges that wait to eat small children and things like that. My thought is, where did that story come from in the first place?

I know in Sweden they have trolls there. I'm not familiar with those stories enough to know if a troll is good or bad. They sell wooden trolls in Sweden to this day that people carve out of wood and you can bring them home. My husband had one and the thing was ugly, so I burned it. Lol. But, where did all those stories come from? there might be some truth to them after all. It would be interesting to find out a lot about the stories of the trolls, and gargoyles and things like that.

[Guest BFSleuth]

gail, you may find Bayanov's article to be of interest in terms of trolls and old stories:

http://www.isu.edu/rhi/pdf/Bayanov.pdf

After reading his article I'm inclined to look at many of the old stories and legends in terms of ancient men trying to make sense of their hairy bipedal neighbors.

[JDL]

I recall a sighting recounted in one documentary located on Troll Hill Road. The local law enforcement officer they interviewed maintained that there was no history of sightings in the area. It made me chuckle because the name of the road itself indicated elsewise.

[Guest UPs]

I read the book that covers the western USA and parts of Canada and am now almost done with the eastern edition. I always had thoughts similar to Cervelos, but that was before I understood the details on many of these missing kids and adults. It is inexcusable for the NPS to not have a database that lists these missing folks and the circumstances surrounding them. How in the world could parks determine if there is any pattern to these disappearances unless they had a database to find possible patterns? Many of these missing were not inside park boundaries, but instead, just outside them. These would fall under a different jurisdiction and those official records may not be available to the public by law. Many of the older cases were identified by newspaper articles.

Some similarities include:

- missing shoes/boots of victim, never found.

- missing clothing of victim, never found.

- dogs refusing or unable to pick up victims scent.

- almost always, storm occurs soon after victim disappears.

- if body is found, located in swamp area or at much higher elevation than where disappearance occurs.

- 18 month to 2 year olds found a great distance away and without clothing/shoes.

- if found alive, kids unable to say what happened to them.

- a couple of cases that kids say a bear took them and protected them.

- some cases of body found in area that was already searched numerious times.

- many cases of absolutely nothing ever found, even with thousands of SAR folks looking for any signs. The case of Trenny Gibson really disturbed me as did many others. In her case, the NPS did release boxes of files. The FBI would not release anything. Well documented case that had similarities to other cases.

Overall, these books are hard for me to read and I want to help in some way. I really understand the valuable service that SAR does and my hats off to them. These cases go well beyond the lost hiker or abducted by some human deviant and I really hope that the families can find closure someday. The more we can learn about the causes of these types of disappearances, the better we will be able to take steps to avoid them. I was lucky that I found my own way out when I was lost. When you get lost in a large forested area, you initial reaction is to panic and you have to will yourself to stay calm and think it through. We were told what to do if we got lost and I was able to stay calm enough to do exactly what I was taught. The one thing that stands out to me with the missing that were teens or older is they left no sign at all. I would expect some type of sign left in the form of tracks, branches made into arrows, carving, clothing left, yelling, smoke, scent, shelter, etc.

Overall, I do not think all of these missing fall into one specific category, but a large portion of them probably do. What that category is I do not know, but I think the author is on the right track and is just missing a few of the pieces of the puzzle. It is understandable to me that speculation will vary from human to wormholes, but I think it is more likely that if an animal such as bf does exist, some of these cases may be a sign of its existence. UPs

[Guest]

I haven’t read the book, so this is just a comment based on some of the posts in this thread, and experience as a (past) member of a very successful SAR team.

A reason for people to be found undressed is hypothermia. One of the things that happens when a person is subjected to cold is they become confused and disoriented. As contrary as it seems, it’s fairly common and normal for a person suffering from hypothermia to undress (paradoxical undressing). Their brain confuses them, and they think they are hot. Another thing that happens is “terminal burrowing.†People tend to take their clothes off and hide. We sometimes see this with animals, hide and die. People do it too.

So, although it seems counter-intuitive (and it is), a number of people in the woods do exactly the opposite of what you would expect. It is “normal†for people to take their clothes off and hide just before they die of hypothermia. When reading accounts of people disappearing, it should be realized that a portion of those never found, or found undressed, did exactly what you would expect. It’s not strange or weird, or freaky, or part of some strange victimization. It is completely normal. They took off their clothes and found the most hidden place they could to die.

[Guest]

I agree with everything Ace has stated in this thread. If what Paulides states about the NPS not maintaining both a global and individual database for each respective park is true I think Paulides has a valid point and this does need to change. I find that difficult to believe simply because Paulides “says so†because of all the other wild speculation and nonsense he attempts to sell as fact in this book. Unfortunately, that’s really the only potentially valid point Paulides makes with this book IMO. I enjoyed Paulides first two books on bigfoot and have read both multiple times. The premise that he markets this book under: “You don’t need to agree with my conclusions for the book(s) to be an interesting readâ€, holds true for his first two books on bigfoot IMO, but definitely should not apply to Missing 411. Not by a long shot.

Missing 411 is the worst book I’ve ever read and is one of only 3-4 books that I’ve ever started to read in my lifetime where the author was so dreadfully ill-informed relative to the topic discussed and so blatently agenda driven that I could not finish the book. There are definitely a handful of missing persons cases that Paulides discusses in Missing 411 that I think everyone on the face of the planet would agree fall into the “bizarre†or “victims of a crime†category. But again these cases are a small handful of the cases Paulides paints as mysterious and sinister in Missing 411. The fact is though, the vast majority of the cases in Missing 411 (and almost all that involve missing children) are not bizarre or mysterious, but follow the general conventions of lost person behavior, particularly if those people that are suffering from the effects of hypothermia.

Paulides does not once mention in the portion of his book that I read (about the first 220 pages), the dangers of hypothermia, the symptoms, or the rather counterintuitive actions that are taken by someone whose core temperature is plummeting. On the “Coast to Coastâ€, interview he mentions paradoxical undressing twice during the interview and makes it very clear in the opinions that he expresses on that broadcast about paradoxical undressing, that he does not think that paradoxical undressing is indeed a reality. He dismisses it out of hand. Paradoxical undressing is indeed a reality although to my knowledge the method with which it manifests has never been proven. Here’s are links that provides explanations of how it manifests:

http://www.weirduniv...cal_undressing/

and another (even the foretean viewpoint acknowledges the reality of paradoxical undressing):

http://www.forteanti...cold_cases.html

Wikipedia (hypothermia):

http://en.wikipedia....ical_undressing

The National Association for Search and Rescue (NASAR) has for decades adopted Ab Taylor’s “Hug A Tree†program as it’s training vehicle for reducing the amount of missing children lost in wilderness areas who are found dead or not found at all. It is promoted by most US SAR organizations. The main premise of the “Hug A Tree†program are as follows:

1- Stay put (i.e. “Hug a tree†and use the tree for shelter to break the wind and the elements.)

2- Preserve thermoregulation and avoid hypothermia.

3- Make yourself and your path of travel visible to SAR personnel.

The “Hug A Tree†concepts can definitely apply also to adults who go missing from groups and are going to be declared missing by said group and the “search†is going to insue in a matter of hours as opposed to days or weeks.

I’d recommend that anyone who has children they take camping or on day trips to wilderness areas to contact your child’s school and request that they have a member of the local SAR unit come to the school and give the “Hug A Tree†presentation to your child's class. If you live in an area where there is no local SAR organization, I would still provide your child with a whistle, a small signal mirror and a trash bag or space blanket and place them in a small ziplock bag and insist that your child carry the aforementioned at all times while in wilderness areas. Make certain your child knows what each of these tools are for. These items are small enough to fit into a pocket. Ask them if they have their “Hug A Tree†kit numerous times to insure they develop a habit of carrying it. A few hours of preparation can prevent a lifetime of grief.

Most importantly, inform your child that if they should find themselves lost that unfamiliar people will be looking for them, and they should not attempt to hide from these people. It may sound counterintuitive, but when kids become overcome by the fear losing their spacial orientation, they often default to the safety controls instilled by their parents. If one of those controls you’ve hammered home as a parent happens to be: “Don’t talk to or approach strangers.†It is likely your child will attempt to hide from the very individuals who are looking for your child and can provide assistance.

If you read the Hug A Tree background, you’ll notice that the case that inspired the development of the “Hug A Tree†program involves a case of paradoxical undressing by a missing child who was found dead. None of the experienced SARs personnel involved thought that it was in the least bit peculiar. Simply because they know what causes it and realize that hypothermia is the worst enemy of anyone lost in the woods. Whether that person be a child or an adult. Thousands of SAR personnel have given the Hug A Tree presentation from coast to coast, obviously don’t think it’s mysterious either. Paulides says in the C2C interview that paradoxical undressing isn’t real. He wants his readers to believe that also.

http://www.nasar.org...y-of-Hug-A-Tree

Presenter’s guide:

http://www.nasar.org...9-29-2008_s.pdf

As stated, I didn’t finish the book, but I just scanned the internet for the few cases of those children who were found alive and went missing recently enough where details of those cases might be on the internet. If you do so what you come up with is the case of Brennan Hawkins. Paulides details the case and clearly finds the Hawkins disappearance to be mysterious. Writing from page 209, Paulides states : “The thousands of newspaper articles I have read in the last several years have shown me that law enforcement and the press try to twist the facts at times to fit the story they want to place in front of the public. I’ve seen this too many times. I believe there are more details to this story that need explanation. He continues: “ Brennan’s disappearance mimics many I have researched...... I think it is incredibly important for searchers to interview the lost after they are found. We need to understand human behavior of all ages and socioeconomic backgrounds……â€

If you google “Brennan Hawkins†the very first link that pops up is this one detailing what happened to Brennan in his own words, as recounted by his mother:

http://www.people.co...0148124,00.html

and another:

http://www.cbsnews.c...162-703669.html

Notice that this first article is from 2005 and has been on the net for 7 years. Paulides claims that Missing 411 was three years in the making, and totaled some 7,000 hours of research. How does someone legitimately conduct 7,000 hours of research and fail to read the first and second article and that pops up in regards to a case?

I certainly don’t have the time to go case by case through Missing 411 and describe how what Paulides finds mysterious in each one fits the bill for what is known about lost person behavior, but for anyone that is willing to take the time to read these documents, those more logical explanations should become apparent:

http://www.smcmsar.o...%20Behavior.pdf

http://husky1.stmary...ologyoflost.pdf

Unlike Missing 411, reading the above two pdf links might help you make better decisions should you find yourself lost, and those better decisions may save your life.

I think this issue transcends belief in bigfoot and all things mysterious. This is not a skeptics vs. believers issue. It’s a case of keeping people safe vs. attempting to make known missing persons cases seem more interesting than they are in reality in an effort to sell as much copy as possible. In this case the “belief system†of what happened to these missing children and people that Paulides is promoting in this book is grossly negligent and involves nothing but irresponsible journalism and either ill-informed or purposely deceitful sensationalism. It’s definitely something that is not going to help save lives, but almost certainly places some lives of individuals who become lost in even further peril. Paulides is simply taking advantage of the fact that there are numerous elements of the behavior of people who become lost that simply cannot be rationalized and are counterintuitive.

What’s sad about Missing 411, is the fact that it probably will be the only book that will ever be read by most people that are interested in UFO’s, alien abduction, bigfoot, serial killers, and the like that deals with the behavior of lost persons and the fact that there are numerous things an individual can do to increase their chances of survival should they become lost. I’m sure the UFO/alien abduction buffs see the cause in some of these disappearances to be aliens. I think this thread indicates that the footers see bigfoot as the cause in some of these disappearances. I’m also sure the killer buffs see the work of numerous serial killers in this book. IMO, the only thing “missing†about Missing 411 is the fact checking and legit research. The vast majority of this people whose cases are detailed in 411, simply got themselves lost, and unfortunately perished.

[Guest BFSleuth]

I absolutely agree with what you are saying regarding paradoxical undressing. This brings to mind the famous case of the Kim family getting stuck on a side road in a snowstorm. He eventually tried to hike out and was found naked or nearly naked in the middle of winter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim

[Guest]

willinyc, Thanks for the articles. The one about 'the psychology of lost' is pretty true to me. I brought my son to NM to hunt gold with me. He was 10. He is autistic to a certain degree and I learned from that trip, that he is unable to get his bearings at all the second he goes into a forest without a trail. I am not kidding. It's very bad. And he has a tendency to seize up and be stiff like a board and panic. My nephew and I had to carry him about a half mile out of the woods there all the while with him moaning and unable to move. He was scared stiff. especially after my nephew pointed out the bear claw marks on a tree to the kid. I could have smacked my nephew for that one. My son was fine when he got back to a building.

I took my son to the forest preserve here just today that is very small, and went along the creek that has a game trail. I wanted to see how he would do. Well....He fell about 4 times, and stumbled more than that along a very easy path and was a nervous wreck. Poor kid. We only went on the path for about two blocks. He's 18 now. I felt sorry for the kid and tunrned back and got him on the road. But, I know that I cannot bring him anywhere in the forest or camping where there is not abundant human activities and asphalt paths. He never gets lost on a path. Never. But get him off a path a block away...it is sad to see. You can see he is clearly disoriented.

we're going to Mt. Rushmore this summer. He is under instructions to not leave my side. He would panic easily without something to get his bearings with. So, there goes my ideas of going on a hike in the black hills. But thanks for that article. I always wondered what the heck was wrong with that kid in NM, and figured it out over the years that he became disoriented somehow. It's very strange to see it though. Because I don't get lost in the woods, I only get lost while driving.

[Guest UPs]

The issue of paradoxical undressing is real and could be a factor in some of these cases, but while reading the few stories of bodies found without pieces of clothing, why wasnt any of the clothing ever found? This is just one piece of a very strange puzzle and if they simply wandered off and got hypothermic, what did they do with their clothing? To me, some of the details are just not indicative of someone wandering off. The cases that have very little documentation, it may be more likely, but it difficult for me to ignore the bizzare circumstances of many of them. In my opinion, there is no simple answer to all of these cases even with all of the resources used to try and solve them. The glaring problem is the lack of cooperation from the NPS and if the people that went missing in their jurisdiction were easily explained, there would be no reason for them to stonewall the author. Does anyone really believe that if the public had access to a database of missing persons cases within the park system that families would use that to vacation away from specific parks? I can only see that scenario if there were details within the cases that were disturbing, such as many outlined in this book.

As far as criticism of the books, the author is a bit choppy and also does some speculation that I do not agree with. Some of his theories jump a bit far for my reasoning and could have been left out. He also could have went into more detail about the affects of hypothermia and how it affects people's reasoning. Some of the cases have so little information that they do not seem to have any relation except to the general area.

After reading the first book, I contacted a SAR outfit in the area where my property and cabin are located. I asked them about missing persons in my area. The reply was that there were many missing in the county. I am still a bit shocked by this reply as I had no idea other than a handful missing over a much larger area and a long time frame. I do realize the missing would not have to be missing in forests, but there are no big cities around at all. UPs

[Guest]

The issue of paradoxical undressing is real and could be a factor in some of these cases, but while reading the few stories of bodies found without pieces of clothing, why wasnt any of the clothing ever found? This is just one piece of a very strange puzzle and if they simply wandered off and got hypothermic, what did they do with their clothing?

It just isn't found. If you took off your shirt and threw it in a gully and then walked another mile it may not be found. If you have six people looking for you and they miss your white t-shirt in the snow, or your greenish brown hippy t-shirt in the woods, well, they just missed it. If your parents said you were last wearing a red shirt and it's fall out (when the leaves turn red) and you were wearing a yellow shirt anyway and it's laying against yellow fallen leaves...well, SAR just missed it. Or, they searched the wrong area, came down an embankment and there you were laying in the leaves with no shirt on. They then don't go looking to see what shirt you were wearing and where it went.

... Does anyone really believe that if the public had access to a database of missing persons cases within the park system that families would use that to vacation away from specific parks? I can only see that scenario if there were details within the cases that were disturbing, such as many outlined in this book.

The issue is though, who is keeping a database. I've never heard of a SAR database at any level. Would each county create their own database, or would it be kept at the state level, or would each jurisdiction at the city, county, state level be responsible for updating a national database? There just isn't such an animal. It's asking someone to provide information that isn't kept and then holding them accountable for not providing it and then calling it stone walling. If you don't have information, never had it, never was responsible for having it and someone requests it does it become a consipiracy if you don't provide it. I mean if I ask you for a copy of a check statement showing your neighbor's payment of a water bill from six years ago and you don't provide it does that mean your neighbor didn't pay it and that you're helping him cover up a non-payment of services? What if he moved away three years before you moved into the adjacent house?

After reading the first book, I contacted a SAR outfit in the area where my property and cabin are located. I asked them about missing persons in my area. The reply was that there were many missing in the county. I am still a bit shocked by this reply as I had no idea other than a handful missing over a much larger area and a long time frame. I do realize the missing would not have to be missing in forests, but there are no big cities around at all. UPs

I'd want to join that SAR team if I were you, and see if I couldn't be of service. Sounds like opportunity knocking.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

I believe our governments know about the Sasquatch. I mean, I`d be surprised if they don`t.

I think it's true Bigfoot show an interest in kids outside this whole missing 411 situation. But do they eat them or just kidnap them? Or both? Kids saying the hairy man took care of them or a bear took care of them sounds suspicious if you ask me.

I've been thinking lately that if Bigfoot does exist and they happen to attack certain people, what would happen? The answer is obvious isn't it. It would be a missing persons case.

BAM

Edited May 10, 2012 by OntarioSquatch