Parks Charging To Hunt Bigfoot. Nothings Free Anymore

[Guest]

Pteronarcyd, yes you are correct!! lol.

Well here's the skinny here in WA. I had a long phone call with the head ranger for our district here in WA. Actually I'll start with the first person I talked to. Her name is Martha Kruger, National Forest service employee. She told me that any group, professionally guided, OR, un-guided does indeed require a permit to hike about and look for Bigfoot. Then I spoke with Pete Urban, next guy in the chain that I was referred to help me fill out my road usage / look for Bigfoot permit. I asked him the same questions I asked Martha, and he said my second question, guided or un-guided was a gray area. Yesterday I asked the head ranger, Dean Millet the same questions. He said that a group of un-guided people do not need a permit to walk about and look for Bigfoot as long as they have an appropriate trail pass. I was really happy to hear this! He did say that I could not be present at all on their hike. I couldn't be anywhere around. So, it's nice to at least get a definitive answer. It is strange getting told three different things by three different people.

During my conversation with the head ranger he also informed me that it usually takes 120 days to obtain my guide and outfitter permit. My request would have to be reviewed, and I would have to pay for that review as well, and they still have the right to turn me down. I like to operate above board, and I intend to, but to me this seems pretty extreme. I even offered to share our data with the forest Service from our camera field work. I explained to him that we have good data on several Cougars, Mountain Goats, Elk, Deer and so on. His answer, animals are not my department. I manage habitat. At that point I decided to stop talking.

Anyways, that's what I've learned so far.

DR

[bipedalist]

Good gosh..... a real eye opener. So I assume "anywhere around" for a guide or leader would mean radio contact would be out of the question too. To say that I am disappointed in the time constraints in obtaining the work, the cost of the review and still the possibility that you may be paying for something that is not approved really seems quite extreme as you are saying. So four months out you have to be thinking of this stuff and make application and if "you're lucky" you might get approved.

Very head spinning on the differing opinions and gray areas too.

So if it is unguided I assume it can still be "organized". If it is organized then I would suppose that entails another whole definition rather than "guided", lol. I see where we are headed with all this, I think.

Anyhow, the trail pass does seem like it would give you a certain sense of credibility should you run face first into a gray area, lol.

[Guest]

Derek,

Do yourself a favor and make one more call, to the head ranger, request a specific citation of the applicable regulations, then read them. Most bureaucrats are ignorant of the regulations they are charged with enforcing, and it is common for them to interpret them too tightly. Your interpretation may differ from theirs, but at least you will be in a position to argue from knowledge. Print out the relevant regs and carry them with you in the field. Many regulators bluff; some are wise enough to know they are bluffing. Most never bother to read the regs they are supposed to enforce. You made three calls and got three answers -- none of which makes sense to me.

A former regulator (please don't hold it against me).

[Guest BFSleuth]

Well said, P. I think regulators will want to err on the side of collecting a fee. Its easier to give back the fee if they are challenged, and "no harm done" to the park if they get more money. I think also that a regulator is well outside the comfort zone of their knowledge of permit requirements when someone starts talking about BF, so they are likely shooting from the hip while they search their mental database... while considering whether to finish that donut.

I think the gist of the permitting in this case has more to do with whether a paid guide is leading a group, not whether a group of people are out to enjoy a hike.

[Guest RayG]

She told me that any group, professionally guided, OR, un-guided does indeed require a permit to hike about and look for Bigfoot.

What specifically did you ask her? When she said 'permit' did you ask her to clarify whether she meant a day pass or a special-use permit?

...he said my second question, guided or un-guided was a gray area.

Same questions as above. What specifically did you ask him, and was there discussion about the difference between a day pass and a special-use permit?

He said that a group of un-guided people do not need a permit to walk about and look for Bigfoot as long as they have an appropriate trail pass.

This guy at least indicates there's a difference between passes and permits, and the answer he gave seems to follow what their website indicates, that if you're a small group of people engaged in a non-commercial activity, you wouldn't need a special-use permit.

He did say that I could not be present at all on their hike. I couldn't be anywhere around.

Did you ask for clarification? Was it because your presence would be deemed to add a commercial/professional aspect to the outing?

So what was the final consensus, is your group going to be charged an access/entrance fee, and then a special-use permit fee as well, or just the access/entrance fee?

RayG

[Guest]

I don't know. I feel like we already pay taxes so we should have access to them and shouldn't be faced with fees.

[Guest Jodie]

Well Derek, how is this going to affect your outings that you had planned if it takes 120 days for approval?

[Guest]

Ray G. My question to her was simple. I said if a group of people want to take a hike in the N F to look for Bigfoot or Bigfoot evidence, and they are amateurs, ( not guides, or accompanied by guides ), do they need a permit?

Second question, same thing I asked her.

As far as me being with them, he said that would be suspect, or look bad, like I was trying to pull a fast one. Not his exact words, but close.

What he was saying was I could not be anywhere around them if I was charging them a guide fee.

Hey Jodie, It affects them big time. I don't agree with all of this, but if I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do it right, with the proper permits required. I simply won't guide anyone until the Federal Government gives me permission, and takes my money of coarse. We still might have some events, presentations and classes, but no field time with our guides until we're legal. Not really sure yet, but guided trips will have to wait until late summer.

Pteronarcyd, great info and advise! Thank you. I'll post his reply here

[Guest Jodie]

Well I'm sorry to hear that but it's probably a blessing in disguise, you don't want to be fined.

[Guest BFSleuth]

Derekfoot, your situation reminds me of my situation when guiding a private (unpaid) party of friends on Mt. Rainier. As I was known as a guide outside the park and the rangers or some of the guides with RMI probably noticed me. My friends got the 3rd degree line of questioning, trying to get them to crack and spill the beans....

[Guest RayG]

Ray G. My question to her was simple. I said if a group of people want to take a hike in the N F to look for Bigfoot or Bigfoot evidence, and they are amateurs, ( not guides, or accompanied by guides ), do they need a permit?

Simple but maybe not specific enough. If there was no mention of commercial or non-commercial activities, I'm wondering if she misunderstood. Whether or not I guide a bunch of engineers (professionals) through the woods, or a group of school children (amateurs), if they didn't pay me to guide them, then I shouldn't require a special-use permit/authorization. We're just enjoying a day at the park, and the normal day pass should be sufficient.

Fee or no fee, there shouldn't be any need to explain that you're hiking through the park looking for bigfoot evidence. If they were to ask me what I was intending to do in the park, I'd tell them 'hike around observing wildlife'. That's it. However, If I charged the engineers/parents a fee for the outing, and even if I stayed outside the park entrance, guiding the group by some method of electronic communications, I should expect to pay for a special-use permit for them to hike around and observe wildlife.

As far as me being with them, he said that would be suspect, or look bad, like I was trying to pull a fast one. Not his exact words, but close.

What he was saying was I could not be anywhere around them if I was charging them a guide fee.

The way I interpret their rules and regulations regarding their 'special-use permit', is that if a fee is charged then the permit is required, regardless of whether or not you're physically present to guide them. It becomes a commercial enterprise as soon as you charge a fee, but that's just my take on what I've read on their website. (this page about special-use permits in the Pacific Northwest in particular).

RayG

[Hairy Man]

OK - first and foremost - I work for the U.S. Forest Service and am part of Public Service that handles all archaeology, engineering, minerals, lands, and special uses. The Special Uses Adminstrator sits 20 feet from my desk. And I'm speaking about National Forest Lands (Department of Agriculture), not Park Service Land (Department of Interior).

To clear up this mess - National Forests are open to ALL to walk, hike, drive, and take pictures in. Some require an entry fee, but these are few and far between. They only time you are required to have a permit is if its a commercial venture (as RayG has been pointing out).

Next, Special Use Permits are a specialized disipline. NEVER EVER call a front desk and ask those types of questions...the front desk is not equiped with that knowledge. They know how to tell you how to get to a campground, etc., but little else. Do not call Ranger Districts either, they do not have that expertise.

Whenever you have a questions, call the National Forest Supervisor's Office (or the SO as we call it) and ask to speak with the Special Uses Administrator. They are the experts on the issue. They will tell you the rules and regulations on what you are planning to do.

So again, no permit is required for individuals (with no money exchanged) to hunt bigfoot on National Forest Lands. There may be an entrance fee, but no permit is required.

Based on what your have stated Derekfoot, a permit is ONLY required when there is a commercial use - you plan to sell your photos or video for profit or you are charging people a fee for you to guide them to hunt for bigfoot, etc. That takes time to issue because they are assessing any potential environmental effect. Derekfoot, you would need a permit to conduct your paid expeditions on federal land. However, if you are not charging a fee, you are welcome to walk in the forest with anyone you choose regardless of your profession.

If someone has told you something different that what I have described above, you are not talking to the right person.

[Guest RayG]

Word.

RayG

[Guest ajciani]

Quite an interesting set of phone conversations.

I know this might come as a surprise to some, but my experience with government bureaucrats is:

1) They are rarely the brightest bulbs in the box.

2) They frequently lack knowledge about their field.

3) They all have their own guesses about the rules and regs.

There is nothing like talking with competent bureaucrats to find out how incompetent the other ones are. The government is extremely charitable about who it hires, especially in the lower ranks.

BTW, if you obtained the incorrect license or permit and pay the fee, it is non-refundable. Especially considering that Derek has been told to obtain a road use permit. It sounds like he will end up being permitted to use the roads for his lumbering or bus safaris, but not actually permitted to guide people. I have heard all sorts of stories about people buying the permits the sales clerks told them they needed, and then being fined for not having the required permit.

[Guest BFSleuth]

Thank you Hairy Man!

I think there are a lot of talented public service employees. However, you make an excellent point that you need to speak to the right person, the one that has the training and knowledge to help you. Thanks for clarifying the point of contact for the National Forests. Is the National Forest Supervisor's Office a single office, like in Washington D.C., or do we call a regional office?

Would the park services have a Special Uses Administrator? Or would they have a different set up? From my experience decades ago each NP had a different set of regulations when it came to guiding (some allowed unlimited concessions and some were monopolies, etc.), but I don't recall whether they also had common management structure in each park.