So Called "myth"

[Guest Dudlow]

One trait concerning the Native American depictions of sasquatch is specifically compelling to me. Native Americans often make sasquatch totems with saggital crests.

While less commonly observed than the standard sagittal crest, there are, nonetheless, numerous accounts of BF without the crested skull. Among other differing characteristics, this has led to speculation concerning the possibility of multiple species rather than the single species so often assumed to inhabit North America. Additionally, the coned head appearance seems to run the gamut from gradations of nonexistant to mildly coned to severely coned. The issue is further complicated if we allow for anthropoidal sexual dimorphism whereby the female usually does not exhibit a sagittal crest among the apes; in which case a number of observed unconed heads may represent female BF.

Dudlow

[Guest]

Oh... and I am looking forward to my impending 3rd encounter.

Cheers for that great response, Bob. I'm looking forward to your next encounter too!

[Guest]

I wonder how often someone sees a Bear, standing upright and walking on two legs, and can't identify it as a bear?

I've seen hundreds and hundreds of bears and I would be tickled pink to see one walk on its hind legs.

Hmph... that statement reminds me of a girl I dated back in the 70's... another time... another place. Failing memories of something failing to be memorable...

(I miss the old emoticons)

[Guest]

Apologies for going off topic here:

I miss the old emoticons

Which ones? Should be easy enough to put them back in.

@Bob: Your account wasn't deleted Bob. Well more accurately, everyone's account was. The BFF shut down for several weeks and changed ownership. With the new software and hardware, etc., everyone had to re-register. That's why everyone's post count is so low and everything looks different.

[BobbyO]

Apologies for going off topic here:

Which ones? Should be easy enough to put them back in.

@Bob: Your account wasn't deleted Bob. Well more accurately, everyone's account was. The BFF shut down for several weeks and changed ownership. With the new software and hardware, etc., everyone had to re-register. That's why everyone's post count is so low and everything looks different.

If used correctly, emoticon's can really take the heat out of a Post & relay someone's way of thinking without the use of words..

I'll vote for the " thumbsup " emoticon & that " laughter hand accross the mouth one "..

[Guest rockinkt]

name='Bullfrog' timestamp='1284138498' post='3733'

Native American interpretations the basic "nature" of Sasquatch-type creatures differ, but the descriptions of them in terms of appearance and some behavioral traits are fairly universal.

Not sure I agree. There is a lot of talk about this amongst bigfoot people but very little proof. As a matter of fact - I know of huge tribes of people whose ancestral stories and legends do not include anything remotely resembling squatches - but their new generations have bought into the myth for cultural (mass media) or political (separates us from them) reasons.

I don't assert that its impossible that Native Americans heard stories about monkeys or monkey-like creatures from others. Almost anything is possible. But I find it unlikely. What really are the chances that Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest came into contact with other cultures familiar with apes or monkeys, were told specific stories of such animals, and then adjusted such stories to themselves and thus invented sasquatch legends?

Look at this map of the trade routes before Columbus. I really hate the fact that schools have taught that NA sat around in their own territory without extensive trade and commerce with far flung tribes.

http://www.cradleboa...s/a_trading.gif

One trait concerning the Native American depictions of sasquatch is specifically compelling to me. Native Americans often make sasquatch totems with saggital crests. The only apes we know of to survive into modern times with visible saggital crests are gorillas (I know orangs and chimps can have them too, but they usually aren‘t prominent enough to give the “cone“ shape gorillas are known for, as are sasquatches and yetis). Presuming sasquatch legends predate European explorers, who would have been able to tell Native Americans about the facial traits of gorillas other than ancient Africans? Surely ancient Africans didn't have contact with Pacific Northwest tribes. Is it possible that saggital crests on sasquatches is something that NAs just made up and its a coincidence that gorillas also have them as do many extinct apes? Yes, I suppose that's possible. But again, what's more likely, that its just a big coincidence or that NAs actually observed an ape at some point with a saggital crest?

I live in the Fraser Valley of BC. I spend a lot of time on the coast. I have Sto:lo heritage. I have yet to see a sasquatch on an old totem. Can you point out where I might see one? Not a new generation - an old totem going back a hundred years or so. There are mythical creatures that are erroneously referred to what we today would call a sasquatch - but the commonly cited myth of the wild woman - for example - is not describing a modern day squatch. Neither are any of the others - IMHO.

Edited September 11, 2010 by rockinkt

[Guest Bob]

Apologies for going off topic here:

Which ones? Should be easy enough to put them back in.

@Bob: Your account wasn't deleted Bob. Well more accurately, everyone's account was. The BFF shut down for several weeks and changed ownership. With the new software and hardware, etc., everyone had to re-register. That's why everyone's post count is so low and everything looks different.

Thanks for the info ShadoAngel I kind of thought that that was it.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Bob

[Guest Bullfrog]

Look at this map of the trade routes before Columbus. I really hate the fact that schools have taught that NA sat around in their own territory without extensive trade and commerce with far flung tribes.

http://www.cradleboa...s/a_trading.gif

Again, I don't submit that its impossible. I just find it unlikely. The most inter-American trade could have came up with would be stories from monkeys from central and South America, and at that nothing we know of would come close to looking like a sasquatch.

I live in the Fraser Valley of BC. I spend a lot of time on the coast. I have Sto:lo heritage. I have yet to see a sasquatch on an old totem. Can you point out where I might see one? Not a new generation - an old totem going back a hundred years or so. There are mythical creatures that are erroneously referred to what we today would call a sasquatch - but the commonly cited myth of the wild woman - for example - is not describing a modern day squatch. Neither are any of the others - IMHO.

Here's what I had in mind:

tp://home.clara.net/rfthomas/papers/sprague.html

(I'm not referencing "totem poles" when I use the term "totem." Totem poles are so stylized that I can't see where a head on a totem pole looks disernably like anything it is suppose to represent, except that birds usually have carved beaks).

Now of course, there's nothing on the carved heads or any ancient Native American artifact that stamps it as being this animal or that. We have to rely on interpretations from living NAs and anthropologists, but by golly, those heads sure look like gorilla heads.

[Doc Holliday]

You think "many thousands" have seen, but not reported their bigfoot encounters?

no sir, i dont. i said many more,not many thousands more. the post i quoted in my reply said "...thousands are willing to report to strangers..." which is true, & thats all part of the sasquatch phenomenon.

my mention of many more simply means i think a good number of folks (not sure how many) might suspect encounters and keep quiet to avoid ridicule.

[Guest rockinkt]

Again, I don't submit that its impossible. I just find it unlikely. The most inter-American trade could have came up with would be stories from monkeys from central and South America, and at that nothing we know of would come close to looking like a sasquatch.

Here's what I had in mind:

tp://home.clara.net/rfthomas/papers/sprague.html

(I'm not referencing "totem poles" when I use the term "totem." Totem poles are so stylized that I can't see where a head on a totem pole looks disernably like anything it is suppose to represent, except that birds usually have carved beaks).

Now of course, there's nothing on the carved heads or any ancient Native American artifact that stamps it as being this animal or that. We have to rely on interpretations from living NAs and anthropologists, but by golly, those heads sure look like gorilla heads.

Fair enough!

[Guest RayG]

Native Americans often make sasquatch totems with saggital crests.

They do? Often? Where might one see some of these squatch totems with sagittal crests, because the photos in the link you provided shows no such thing.

RayG

[Guest]

Apologies for going off topic here:

Which ones? Should be easy enough to put them back in.

We definitely need to bring back the faint and thumbs-up ones. It wasn't a part of the old forums emoticons, but the *beating the dead horse* one comes in handy at times.

[Guest UPs]

Although I do not agree with Saskeptic on some of his conclusions on the subject of bf (eye witness accounts all being hoaxes, liars, mis-ids), I do agree on his point of getting out in the forests and learning as much as you can in those surroundings. One thing that almost never gets mentioned in this debate is what we can learn from others who bring pictures and/or description of unusual sign they find while out searching for bf. Tree twists, weaving, foot prints, knocks, screams, howls, and rock throwing all come to mind. If this sign is make by known animals, humans, or bf, it helps me know more about the forests that I spend time in. If bf is a myth, then all of this sign found in the woods should be proven to be from something other than an unknown animal. So far, this is not the case (at least to my own satisfaction). UPs

[Guest vilnoori]

Not sure I agree. There is a lot of talk about this amongst bigfoot people but very little proof. As a matter of fact - I know of huge tribes of people whose ancestral stories and legends do not include anything remotely resembling squatches - but their new generations have bought into the myth for cultural (mass media) or political (separates us from them) reasons...

I live in the Fraser Valley of BC. I spend a lot of time on the coast. I have Sto:lo heritage. I have yet to see a sasquatch on an old totem. Can you point out where I might see one? Not a new generation - an old totem going back a hundred years or so. There are mythical creatures that are erroneously referred to what we today would call a sasquatch - but the commonly cited myth of the wild woman - for example - is not describing a modern day squatch. Neither are any of the others - IMHO.

I wonder if this is what is being referred to:

http://www.hancockhouse.com/article.php/20050914091500648

Note the very interesting comment speculating that monkeys brought by visiting Spaniards as pets might be the answer to the simian characteristics of this single mask.

rock I am curious as to what else the "wild woman of the woods," tsonoqwa I presume, could be, if not a sasquatch? It certainly seems to fit quite well, as well as "buquas," wild men of the woods? Long haired, screaming creatures? Hooting, or perhaps whistling, if you believe the pursed lips?

[Guest rockinkt]

Vilnoori - good to talk to you again!

As you know - masks and totems are very often hugely stylized in the First Nation's culture. Not sure if one can look at a very old mask today and state categorically that what our personal reference and belief tells us we see - is what the artist intended to convey.

On the old forum there was a lot of nonsense being bandied about trying to claim that a seal mask (IIRC) was sasquatch. Sort of like everybody having their own interpretations of songs or poems that make the writer roll their eyes and laugh (or cry )

The JREF forum has a great thread --- "Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look". There was a lot of in depth research (including contact with various FN tribes) done by a forum member and is definitely worth a look.

Since I'm not sure about linking to another forum from this forum - for those interested in a real solid research project regarding one of the cornerstones of what people refer to as "historical sasquatch evidence" - just google jref and go to the index and click on "General Skepticism and the Paranormal" section and find the thread referred to above.

I think your questions about the "Wild Woman" will be answered thoroughly with tons of references to back up any claims that are made by the writer.