Population Pockets

[Guest scooterdad]

Scooterdad - Yeh, I'd say more or less. I don't think a family or group of Sasquatch from the Flattops travel/migrate all the way down to the San Juans.

I've got a close friend who harvested 2 elk this year. He is a very very avid hunter. He knows the Sawatch Range (Holy Cross Wilderness) like the back of his hand. He's never seen one, or any sign. On the flip side, a co-worker told me of his hunter friend who saw 2 Sas's 4 or 5 years ago on the south and east side of Holy Cross mtn. Up Homestake Reservoir.

I may be a little low on the numbers. But like you say, who knows?

I'll agree with hesitation about the migration and while its been a while since I've looked at sightings in Colorado and a topo map I do think its possible for migration. I forget his name but there was a guy that posted in a bow hunters forum about the southern Colorado bigfoot population and he pointed me to a spot that could be worth while.

Bobby O I can't wait to see your Colorado data

PM me when you posted it.

Edited November 20, 2012 by scooterdad

[Guest COGrizzly]

It was Keith Foster. Hellova guy and the person who got me into this.

[BobbyO]

Neat findings BobbyO!

I agree with TS that the sample sizes are small and do not represent the true population, but this is what we got to work with.

One suggestion on finding patterns on migration is to put the time series for each of the wilderness areas that you have segregated for Washington (or CO) in Excel and then generate a correlation coefficient matrix.

Negative CC between time series will tell you that when one is going up the other is going down.

Positive CC between time series wil tell you that the both increase at the same time (again this is tricky and could be due to TV shows creating more reports).

Zero CC shows that the movements are not correlated. Could be random or independent.

To generate reliable CC you need lots of data, so add as many years as you can.

One way to stretch the data points is to convert the time series from sightings per year into sightings per month or per quarter.

Correlation is not evidence of causation, but it can support you hypothesis of migration patterns.

Excel has this CC function, and Crystal Ball creates the full matrix for all your time series (I think you had over 8 wilderness areas in WA?).

I've got them in Excel, shall i send them over to you ?

PM me your email..

[BobbyO]

Ok, Colorado, with pictures to hopefully make things easier to understand.

Initially i looked at Colorado Springs, before the year 2000, and i looked at them as there seemed to be a nice little cluster as you can see below.

Then i noticed that from 2000 - 2010, the sightings seemed to drop off, almost ( but not quite ) completely, as you can see below.

So it got me thinking as to why that drop off occurred so i started looking at the immediate area and discovered that Colorado Springs had a major growth where it's population was concerned, as seen below.

I then started playing around with the Google Earth ( Managni's ) software and playing with the decades, looking west for any possible areas that may have seen an increase in sightings from the relevant years, and i found it.

This is an area ( within the vicinity of Independence Pass, COGrizz and others may be able to give a better area overview of the area ) that had the below sightings before 2000.

And this is it below after 2000.

At that stage i believed i had the basis of a possible pattern of movement, but i was unsure on the route of travel and a reason, aside for the growth of Colorado Springs as a City, why the animals would choose this specific.

Firstly i looked at the route, and to me there was only one route possible due to lack of cover in the area, along the South Platte River, and i discovered that there was the reports listed below, in East > West fashion, in a perfect timeline running from May 2000 > September 2000 > October 2000, as seen below.

So that, obviously, got me really thinking i was on to something, i believed i had not only found a patter of movement but that i'd also found a route in which they had moved also.

Now i just want to say that i don't know why the sightings were spread out over 4 - 5 months ( there could be any number of reasons ) and it must also be noted that no actual visual sightings occurred, they are all Class B's..

But at this stage i was willing to look beyond this and look into their destination area and what it held as i'm not one much for coincidences especially given the other circumstances i had found by that stage.

I know wanted to look at the possible reasoning for the area they chose as a destination.

My first thought, as it should be, was food and i wanted to find out if it was possible to find Elk and Deer migration routed and if there was any in that part of Colorado, and of course Google Earth overlay's would be ideal so i scoured hunting forums for any software out there and one day stumble upon this below.

These are the Elk and Mule Deer Migration routes ( green shaded areas ) as an overlay on the BF Sightings in the destination area.

I am not concluding anything, i'm just sharing my findings and leaving people to make their own decisions on them..

[Guest]

Nice work, Bobby! Stuff like THIS is data that can be deemed "reliable and testable"... and come up with the same answer. Nice.

[Guest]

BobbyO, it took me a while to follow along in the maps what you were explaining, but I think you just might be onto something. Nicely done. Keith Foster would probably appreciate hearing about this new wrinkle since he was the first one I know of looking at elk migrations and possible Sasq following them in S. Colorado.

Yeah, Explorer, some metrics like correlation coef's on this would be great.

Data. Needs me some data. Again, thanks BobbyO.

[BobbyO]

I don't have any contact details for him ts, i'd gladly share and have it written up in online publication form and can share the link, not a problem.

[Guest COGrizzly]

He is a member here. I'll call him tomorrow.

[Guest scooterdad]

Very nice sir

Edited November 21, 2012 by scooterdad

[Guest BastetsCat]

I had really high estimates a few years ago. I had a two year observation of what I called a crossing point. To the south is the red mountain that leads into the saguache range and certainly mount of the holy cross area.

To the North is the flattops wilderness and the Gore range.

In between runs the eagle river and Interstate 70.

Friends and I witnessed several distinctly different individuals. Many average sized average black colored individuals as well. Grouped together in ten to twenty at a time. Colors or patterns of distinct animals was grey, white, red/cinnamon. I heard about ones that were multi colored with white/grey/black; very difficult to see unless they were moving. Tall black with white around the head- described like a druid cut or looked like an owl flying at night. black on the bottom graduating into gunmetal grey and then grey and almost white grey on the top. Blue black and red black.

They seemed to migrate across the river from one location to the other...at different times. The river in that area is almost a bottleneck due to the interstate. The area along the river is wooded along the valley bottom. to the wouth is cliffs or slopes of Red hill. ravines all the way down for what seven -ten miles.

So in theory. If you have groups of as many as ten -twenty creatures traveling through once a year or even twice a year. Hanging out and then moving on it seems logical that there are other groups in the areas they are walking into.

In checking sightings reports, talking to people, and getting myself into the loop I discovered that at the same time of my sightings others were seen in mutliple locations from holy cross wilderness to the flattops area at the same times...

Five groups in a 100 square mile area, all with 10-20 creatures would equal 50-100 of them in the area....Plausible.

I said my estimates were higher. I saw more than five groups pass through in the two years...unless they drastically changed colors they were not the same groups. I also don't know where they went afterwards. It could have been one giant group and they all stay there year round...don't think so but who knows. They could have gone north to steamboat area, north of steamboat is still mostly unpopulated. South beyond Aspen is still pretty wild as well. East and west as long as you stay away from 70 holds some really open space as well.

All I can say is that I estimated more than 200 creatures passed through the area every year.

[BobbyO]

BC, what was the years this happened ?

& can you give me some Long/Lat co ordinates please or the name of the closest town, i can't seem to find here you're talking about ?

Climax area maybe, Leadville or Glenwood Springs ?

This is the exact area judging by the Map of I-70 that i'm looking at, that coincides with my findings of where the Animals that were being seen in Colorado Springs moved to after the year 2000.

[Guest kampz]

Well your not going to put bigfoot next to a toilet seat when you have the British Columbian forest. Bigfoot rules. Those places that the thread starter said could work considering,.

[Guest BastetsCat]

BC, what was the years this happened ?

& can you give me some Long/Lat co ordinates please or the name of the closest town, i can't seem to find here you're talking about ?

Climax area maybe, Leadville or Glenwood Springs ?

This is the exact area judging by the Map of I-70 that i'm looking at, that coincides with my findings of where the Animals that were being seen in Colorado Springs moved to after the year 2000.

Find Gypsum Colorado (Eagle County Colorado)...go three - Five miles west along the Eagle River. There is a series of day camping areas. From Gypsum to the last day camping sight in the three-five miles is heavily treed along the river. From there all the way to the glenwood canyon is open and mostly sage brush.

This happened in the early 2000's. I spuratically visit the area and have had not much luck with it in relation to BF since around 2008. I know of twelve reported and non reported sightings in that clump of woods in the early 2000's. I was told by BFRO researchers because the area is so populous and easy to get to that they would not post about it...so they had several reports as well.

One that was reported on the BFRO though maybe not still there was a track line that was found one mile west of Gypsum that coincided with the tracks that were found one mile east of Eagle Colorado. Keith Foster had the theory that the single creature walked in the river from Gysum to Eagle. The distance between towns is approx. 7 miles. This area became known to me after I moved my horse to a friends property near to the last camp ground.

The owner had no experiences until I moved my horses there... A few things to consider about Eagle County....and Garfield county. The Glenwood Canyon was Highway 6...it became Interstate 70 with a full camera system in use. The round the clock work may have encouraged the creatures to alter their route.

At this point there are just a few 'bottlenecks' due to Deer fence that stretches on BOTH sides of I70 for most of the length of Eagle County. Near to the last camp ground is a drainage pipe that goes under the interstate, I have been told it is big enough to drive a 4wheeler through.

Another area of bottle neck is between Wolcott and Eagle in the Muddy creek or Milk creek drainage that dumps into Eagle River.

The deer fence which is relativley new in most locations would alter the deer and elk migrations as well.

I looked at your map and the area I have looked at most is off of the map.

From say Craig Colorado East to The road to Walden via Kremling Colorado. South to Leadville ish area and then cutting over to Aspen And further west. Lots of wild places in there. Kind of using the Gore Range and the Gore Forest as a line to edge the part north of 70. Then at the 70 - 6&24 junction jump east and follow the ridge of the road then go southish to Aspen. You could really go all the way to the road that runs across Colorado that accesses crested butte and durango if you wanted.

Edited to add...I know that there are already people watching this area...happy hunting. Hope you get pictures.

Edited November 23, 2012 by BastetsCat

[Guest kfoster]

I generally swore off of forums years ago due to too much contention of some posts. This forum is pleasently mild. COGrizzly called me and told me of this post of BobbyO maps and so I came to see. Always interesting.

I began noticing a possible elevational movement pattern in an instance of a plethora of sightings in the winter of 1993/94 down at the south end of the San Louis Valley in an area where elk migrated to out of the Conejos drainage. The people living in that area are rather guarded in regards to publishing the sightings in that area and I was asked by the Conejos Sheriff at the time to not give out names or location details due to privacy. The winter was especially harsh that year at upper elevation and the elk were forced even further down and out into the open more in some fairly human populated areas. The elk connection started forming in my mind at the time due to a pretty good unpublished sighting there in that area and time by a local rancher who watched through binoculars from his deck as two sasquatch were apparently hunting a small herd of elk in some open brushland adjacent to a forested area. One sasquatch was approaching the herd from one direction while the other was on the escape side of the herd. The rancher said the two sasquatch seemed to be signalling each other with arm movements. He said the two sasquatch were both very large, at least as bulky as the adult elk they were hunting, well over 600 pounds and likely much more. Ranchers are fairly good at estimating weight due to purchase of cattle by weight and this rancher also had the adult elk right there in his view with the sasquatch. Their hunt failed in this instance as the herd went the wrong way for the two big hairy ones. There was corroberating evidence in the area at the time as former law enforcement officer Joe Taylor Jr. found a set of two large tracks of two sasquatch traveling together not far from the ranchers location. Taylor described the tracks as 19 inches and 21 inches respectively. Larger than any tracks I have found in that area. The largest set I have investigated personally was the 19 inch tracks in the Eagle CO area, which were definitely genuine and represented a foot length of over 18 inches long. Massive. 21 inch tracks boggle my senses. Taylors video of the tracks was poor and I could not see the detail I wanted in them and he never had anything in the video of the tracks to give me scale of their size. They did appear to be saquatch tracks however.

There was no BFRO database at the time, and getting information was much more difficult, but in some ways better as one had to make many contacts with local law enforcement and such. Around that time I got a list of email addresses for Colorado hunting guides and outfitters and sent out a general email to as many as I could, requesting information if they had had any sightings or track finds in Colorado. I figured if anyone in CO had info on local wildlife, it would be the professional outdoorsman. I got back I think 7 positive responses and they all seemed to have something to do with elk or high elk density areas of Colorado. A couple of the guides had up close and personal encounters while bugling for elk, as the sasquatch seemed to be responding to the elk calls the guides were making at the time. Both were personally bowhunting themselves at the time of their respective incidents, in full camo and in hidden positions so that the sasquatch got in close before realizing their mistakes. Sasquatch can make mistakes, just like all hunters. Another interesting email from one of the guides described how two of his clients had stalked up on what they thought was a large black bear feeding on an elk or a deer in some willows only to discover they had stalked up on a huge "gorilla looking man" who glared at them and then stood fully upright and walked away into cover, leaving the carcass behind. It made no threats to them, just left. This was secondhand, but the guide said he fully believed his hunters, as it apparently nearly scared them to death. Interestingly, the two guides with up close personal sightings also said that when the sasquatch they called in discovered their error, those sasquatch also made no threats, but simply walked away from them. They seem to just want to avoid humans as much as possible, especially in the daylight. I think the only reason my sons and I were apparently threatened by one of them was because it could smell us from the other side of some willows as I was smoking a cigarette at the time, but did not know exactly where we were located. Getting screamed/roared at from close range makes a human feel small and fragile I can tell you. I didn't bust through the willows and tear us limb from limb, as I was expecting any moment during the incident. I knew nothing of sasquatch at the time and feared for our safety at the time, and probably still would in the same situation. At any rate, I refer to our own incident due to the fact there were cow elk calling to their calves back and forth in the area of our incident just prior to our incident. We were fishing in some beaver ponds at the time, not hunting.

As time went on, I continued to see some correlation with sightings in apparent relation to elk density numbers and seasonal elk movement in Colorado. In Colorado at least, sasquatch seem to be active all winter, if tracks in snow and winter sightings are of any relevance. Winter might even be a fairly easy time for them, as winter killed ungulates and ungulates slowed in escape by deep snow might make easy pickens. Puma have no trouble finding food in winter. Though nothing is ever really easy for any top predator.

There does seem a correlation in the Pike with elk movements too. There seems to be also a correlation on the west side of the continental divide with those from the forests there possibly moveing downhill and south into the Navajo Reservoir area and even down into Russian Olive infested drainages there in northern New Mexico. They seem to stick to cover, but have to go where food is available, even if it means getting somewhat exposed as happened there in the south end of the San Luis Valley and in the olive infested cover of northern New Mexico in winter.

There is of course much we don't know about them and can only make guesses based on more known wildlife. My speculations are just based on personal interviews and track investigations. Still speculation with lots of maybes. I speculate a territorial social system very much like that of the Orangutan, but on a terrestrial level of much larger territory. Territory based on caloric need for survival and very similar to the puma territorial requirements times 4. Even at peak population, no one area can support hoards of sasquatch in a group due to the fact that they would eat themselves out of house and home and die of starvation after they killed off too many of their prey. Orangutans and puma have their territorial social system for a reason. Long calls of the male orangutan and mating screams of the female puma are for a reason, having to do with distance from their fellow mating partners and the need to get together for procreation at times. With the orangutan also having to do with keeping other males out of their areas. He says, "my fruits here, my mate come here, you other males stay away".

I have no real population estimates for sasquatch in Colorado, only that they seem pretty dang rare and that we really can't support huge numbers of them due to food limitations. Obviously they might be at danger of inbreeding if either the young males or young females did not move a distance, dispersal, into some area besides their father and mothers territory. Gorilla females generally leave their troop for another troop, males subordinating at home or growing to take over the alpha role at home. Orangutan young adults fan out independant of gender and try to find a place they can eat and breed in peace from other orangutans, similar to puma dispersal. Though in puma it is the young males that move the farthest. I speculate that sasquatch are similar to orangutan and puma dispersal to new territory, rather than a trooping behavior of gorillas. The most tracks together that I have ever seen is two individuals together, both apparently large and likely two adult males. Usually tracks are of one lonely sasquatch going from point A to point B. If they trooped in groups, we would likely see their passage as one sees when a herd of elk passes in snow, a rather obvious disturbance of the snow. While it would be nice to see where a dozen sasquatch crossed the highway between Cripple Creek and Divide Colorado in the new fallen winter snow, it has not happened. But, if you keep your eye out there you might find some outsize tracks of one individual sasquatch traveling east to west or west to east across that highway in the winter snow at some point where fingers of forest meet the highway area on both sides of the highway. But only rarely at that. So rarely that I fear more extinction of the species rather than fearing meeting a hungry group of them there.

Every time I see some physical evidence in Colorado, I breath a sigh of relief that there is at least one still left. I saw evidence of one last summer on the Conejos, just downstream of the Lake Fork drainage, so there is at least one there. Tracks were in the 17 inch catagory but in so much needle duff and in dust with lots of small vegetation that I couldn't even get good photos of them to share. I got some pretty good photos of where it had stopped and scraped an odd marker of some sort in the dirt with its fingertips and then stepped in the dust it had disturbed leaving a very good round heel print. At the time I took the photos I thought it was making the scrape marks with it's toe tips, but after looking more at the photos and doing measurements I realized it was using its fingertips to mark the ground rather than it's toe tips. The heel print made me think it was toe tips at the time. Looked like it was drawing purposefully a pointer arrow shape on the ground, but it might have been only trying to scrape a grasshopper from the ground to snack on or something. They certainly have big fingertips, or at least that one did. I would have not noticed the tracks had I not seen the odd mark in the soil first.

There was a somewhat accidental photo of one of them taken in 2009 near Pikes Peak that I deem genuine. A man named Ron Peterson was taking photos of some apparent sasquatch tracks and caught what appears to be a female sasquatch in the distance as it was intently watching him from cover. Mr. Peterson was not a bigfoot researcher or anything at the time, just taking photos of the huge tracks in very shallow snow/frost that were interesting to him. He could also smell a strong stench in the area at the time and was kind of afraid because of the combination. Little did he know he was being very intently watched from some 50 yards away. Looks also to be a young sasquatch with the apparent female, with the young one holding on to or even climbing the tree next to her. I think the photo is genuine because as a wildlife artist I have been doing some sculptures based on the Patterson footage and see in the Peterson photo the same exact skull structure, hair length in regards to body location and hair reflectivity as the Patterson footage. You might have to play with photo contrast and bring out colors in a good photo software to see the detail I am describing, but as one who usually laughs at blobsquatch photos, I am extremely impressed with the Peterson photo. The Peterson subjects nose appears less hooded than the Patterson subject, but it does not concern me as there are individual differences in soft tissue structure in apes and humans. The Peterson nasal passages exactly match the apparent nasal passage locations evident as much as possible in the Patterson film subject. I can probably only see the relationship well because I have a sculpture of the Patterson subject staring at me from my workbench that is based on a caliper defined sculpture of the face of her from all the angles she presented to the cameraman. Bill Munns series of the head detail photos really helped me get a better idea and sculpture than I have ever been able to do. Sasquatch cranium is so gorilla like from the brow back that it is almost amazing. Form follows function in anatomy and they need the skull structure to support the head the way it is held, and the incredible sasquatch trapizoid muscles. The semblance between gorillas and sasquatch in the head from the brow back is likely not due to close primate relationship, but rather simply one of anatomical function. Petersons photo can be seen on the website Sasquatch Investigations of the Rockies, in the "bigfoot pictures" part of the website. Sasquatch win no beauty contest, except with other sasquatch.

I also think the camera trap photo taken by Extreme Expeditions is likely genuine, due to the incredible trapizoid muscles clearly evident. I flip my sculptures around backward and the form matches precisely in muscle anatomy. If the Extreme Expeditions subject is a hoax, it was made by a good fellow sasquatch anatomist and they did a good job with hair length too in the correct areas based on my own study. That recent photo also gives me hope that extinction has not happened yet and may not be as pending as I fear.

I hope that is a youngster in the tree beside the Peterson subject there in the Pikes Peak area . It would make me happy if it is. The Peterson subject does look pretty intent in the glare she is giving the photographer, like "one more step toward us and you are toast".

Keith Foster

[bipedalist]

Thanks for the input KF and for the details. In the finger sketched pointer seen with the print, did you ever try to figure out the correlation with anything that might have been significant to point out that you can share, other than travel direction?