Mr Green Clarifies His Challenge

[Guest]

Mr Green was gracious enough to correspond with me further on these topics after I asked him about dermatoglyphics and has consented to allow his email to be posted here:

I have observed everything specified except tracks ascending and descending steep slopes, which the the original 16-inch "Bigfoot" did. A surviving witness for that would be Ed Schillinger, the young stake-setter on that road job more than half a century ago, now a civil engineer in Eureka. I have seen tracks crossing a steep slope with only the sides digging in. Of course there will soon be no witnesses left from 1958 or even for the 1967 tracks, so the challenge will probably be cancelled before long.

The people who think the Blue Creek Mountain tracks could have been hoaxed never saw them, of course. In the several hundreds of prints of at least two individuals, all made in the dark in a single night, there was an infinite amount of variation. No one of the many people who saw them while we were there ever suggested any possibility of hoaxing, nor have I heard of anyone who saw them suggesting it since.

Anyone who has tried making tracks wearing carved feet such as those exhibited by the younger Wallaces knows that they are useless except on carefully selected or prepared soft and level surfaces. I can do a little better with fiberglass reproductions of actual tracks firmly attached to boots, but not much better, and there are examples of better faking done in other ways. Wallace, by the way, never claimed to have faked tracks, even to his family, as they admitted to Rick Noll, and there is no evidence that he ever did it, although I don't doubt he tried. He did produce and sell fake casts, but that's a much easier accomplishment. .

The claims that the requirements for duplicating the tracks are impossible are quite correct, unless you happen to be a more-than-1,000-pound biped. That's why no Wallace or anyone else has ever made a public attempt to do it. The present challenge is not a new thing, there has almost always been money on offer for anyone who can fake convincing tracks and no one has ever made a serious attempt to collect. It can't be done.

There is no point wasting time on the people who want to believe the tracks at Bluff Creek [I believe he may be actually referring to BCM, but he might also be referring to BC as stated - Mulder] were all hoaxed. Any evidence they claim to have found in photographs has been easy to refute, but nothing will discourage them.

Ed Schillinger, by the way, considers himself almost an adopted member of the Wallace family, and he told me they tried to persuade him to play along with their claims, but he refused. He said he thought very highly of Ray, who took him under his wing after his father died, and was annoyed at the family members for trashing Ray's reputation...

So:

1) Mr Green DID observe track dynamism and variation at BCM, as did multiple other people.

2) The slopes part of the challenge is based on the observations of Mr Schillinger at Bluff Creek.

3) No one who actually saw the BCM trackway thought that it was in any way hoaxed.

4) The Wallace family has admitted a) to fabricating the claim that Ray faked bf trackways [Rick Noll] and trying to rope others into backing their tall tale up [schillinger].

*EDIT* Mr Green followed up that email with this one:

On reflection, I should amend my terminology, as I realize that what I said about the tracks across a slope can be readily interpreted to argue that they were made by rigid carved feet mounted inflexibly on boots. The tracks conformed to the material, which was a pile of fairly soft dirt, enough so the whole track showed, but of course dug in deeper on the inner edges. I took photos but they were to be sent to Tom Slick and have not survived. There was too much slope to make casts.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Mulder

[wolftrax]

1) Mr Green DID observe track dynamism and variation at BCM, as did multiple other people.

Let's see it.

[Guest]

Let's see it.

You have before you Mr Green's own words as to what he and the others saw. If you have evidence he is not telling the truth, present it.

Or, as you put it to me "ask him yourself". Post what his reply to that is.

[gigantor]

great Mulder, but some of the tracks are obviously fakes. How do you explain that?

[Guest LAL]

great Mulder, but some of the tracks are obviously fakes. How do you explain that?

Obviously? Obviously is obviously in the eye of the beholder.

[Guest fenris]

You have before you Mr Green's own words as to what he and the others saw. If you have evidence he is not telling the truth, present it.

Or, as you put it to me "ask him yourself". Post what his reply to that is.

this is a subject like it or not, where one's own word doesn't constitute evidence, hard evidence constitutes evidence. I have all the resoect in the world for Mr. Green, but to accept acedotal anything from that far back is a bit niave.

[Drew]

Weren't there tracks with a 3 or 4" long gouge in the heel, that matched a wallace foot?

[wolftrax]

You have before you Mr Green's own words as to what he and the others saw. If you have evidence he is not telling the truth, present it.

Or, as you put it to me "ask him yourself". Post what his reply to that is.

that's ok, I've seen many photos from the Onion Mtn. incident where it was claimed there was dynamic movement, and there wasn't any. Only different depths and sign of stiff wooden toes pushing dirt around. I've also seen images of the Wallace feet and they match right up to the tracks. People can state over and over again that these tracks exhibitted dynamic movement but until that is actually exhibited, I'm not buying it.

[Guest]

What did you have for breakfast yesterday? Prove it. Show me the grocery receipt and pictures of you at the store shopping for it, show me pictures of you cooking it, plating it, and eating it. Show me the empty food packages you used (and match them to pictures of the same in your hand unopened at the store).

Now do you understand just how ridiculous you sound?

I'm sorry Mr Green wasn't a trained NCIS tech. I'm sorry that he didn't take 50 billion pictures of every track, plot them all out on a grid map, assemble signed and sworn affidavits from everyone present, and all the other things that maybe we'd LIKE for him to have done. I'm sorry this isn't all tied up in a pretty little package with a ribbon on top.

But that doesn't mean that he and the others didn't see what he says they saw at BCM.

It is cynical and dishonorable to all but openly call a man a liar for no good reason and without any counter evidence simply because he didn't document everything to YOUR satisfaction.

And before you, Ray or anyone else brings up Bob H or the Wallace kids, there IS good evidence to suggest their claims are bogus, and that evidence HAS been presented, both here and elsewhere.

[Guest fenris]

What did you have for breakfast yesterday? Prove it. Show me the grocery receipt and pictures of you at the store shopping for it, show me pictures of you cooking it, plating it, and eating it. Show me the empty food packages you used (and match them to pictures of the same in your hand unopened at the store).

Now do you understand just how ridiculous you sound?

I'm sorry Mr Green wasn't a trained NCIS tech. I'm sorry that he didn't take 50 billion pictures of every track, plot them all out on a grid map, assemble signed and sworn affidavits from everyone present, and all the other things that maybe we'd LIKE for him to have done. I'm sorry this isn't all tied up in a pretty little package with a ribbon on top.

But that doesn't mean that he and the others didn't see what he says they saw at BCM.

It is cynical and dishonorable to all but openly call a man a liar for no good reason and without any counter evidence simply because he didn't document everything to YOUR satisfaction.

And before you, Ray or anyone else brings up Bob H or the Wallace kids, there IS good evidence to suggest their claims are bogus, and that evidence HAS been presented, both here and elsewhere.

Noone called Mr. Green a liar, but he is getting on years and the events in question didn't exactly happen yesterday. The memory is an imperfect thing, and like it or not, some of us aren't going to accept acedote as evidence. My observations of your arguments lead me to the conclusion that you just don't want to see past your beliefs....

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does make you look as though you are on a crusade of some kind.

[Guest LAL]

Weren't there tracks with a 3 or 4" long gouge in the heel, that matched a wallace foot?

http://bigfootforums...dpost__p__38588

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i470/damndirtyape1/Bigwallace27web.jpg

Edited February 18, 2011 by LAL

[Guest AAU]

What did you have for breakfast yesterday? Prove it. Show me the grocery receipt and pictures of you at the store shopping for it, show me pictures of you cooking it, plating it, and eating it. Show me the empty food packages you used (and match them to pictures of the same in your hand unopened at the store).

Now do you understand just how ridiculous you sound?

I'm sorry Mr Green wasn't a trained NCIS tech. I'm sorry that he didn't take 50 billion pictures of every track, plot them all out on a grid map, assemble signed and sworn affidavits from everyone present, and all the other things that maybe we'd LIKE for him to have done. I'm sorry this isn't all tied up in a pretty little package with a ribbon on top.

But that doesn't mean that he and the others didn't see what he says they saw at BCM.

It is cynical and dishonorable to all but openly call a man a liar for no good reason and without any counter evidence simply because he didn't document everything to YOUR satisfaction.

And before you, Ray or anyone else brings up Bob H or the Wallace kids, there IS good evidence to suggest their claims are bogus, and that evidence HAS been presented, both here and elsewhere.

This an excellent post, full or reason, and common sense.

[Guest BitterMonk]

My observations of your arguments lead me to the conclusion that you just don't want to see past your beliefs....

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does make you look as though you are on a crusade of some kind.

Quoted for truth. There's nothing inherently wrong with a person deciding to invest their faith in someone's word, but it's intellectually dishonest to not admit it.

Edited February 18, 2011 by masterbarber
removed response to a post that has been removed

[wolftrax]

What did you have for breakfast yesterday? Prove it. Show me the grocery receipt and pictures of you at the store shopping for it, show me pictures of you cooking it, plating it, and eating it. Show me the empty food packages you used (and match them to pictures of the same in your hand unopened at the store).

Now do you understand just how ridiculous you sound?

I'm sorry Mr Green wasn't a trained NCIS tech. I'm sorry that he didn't take 50 billion pictures of every track, plot them all out on a grid map, assemble signed and sworn affidavits from everyone present, and all the other things that maybe we'd LIKE for him to have done. I'm sorry this isn't all tied up in a pretty little package with a ribbon on top.

But that doesn't mean that he and the others didn't see what he says they saw at BCM.

Previously you said that Meldrum observed this same dynamic toe and foot movement in the tracks. Meldrum wasn't onsite, he had to have seen it after the fact, therefore it was documented and can be presented.

It is cynical and dishonorable to all but openly call a man a liar for no good reason and without any counter evidence simply because he didn't document everything to YOUR satisfaction.

I didn't call him a liar, so far you are the only one saying that.

I said I would need to see dynamic toe and foot movement to be convinced. Accusations by you won't change that.

And before you, Ray or anyone else brings up Bob H or the Wallace kids, there IS good evidence to suggest their claims are bogus, and that evidence HAS been presented, both here and elsewhere.

Good evidence? You have a second hand statement that one person adopted by Wallace said that the others approached him to lie about it and that he felt upset Wallace's family was ruining Wallace's reputation. Wallace's reputation? Amazingly, this is put forward by the same people that have said nobody could be fooled by the fake casts Wallace was making and selling from his shop or the various letters he wrote to Green with fantastic stories of sasquatch that nobody would believe. So I suppose now the stance has changed on Wallace, he wasn't a hoaxer and prankster who enjoyed making people laugh on a constant basis and had wooden feet that look just like the tracks, but instead all of his casts were truly from a sasquatch, and all of his wild stories were true, and his family turned on him and ruined his reputation and made the wooden feet themselves. They went so far as to find these Onion Mtn. images showing the ridge in the heel and carved a crack that corresponds to it in the wooden feet. The films and photos they claimed were Wallace's wife in an ape suit were really of a real sasquatch.

Edited February 18, 2011 by wolftrax

[Guest]

Noone called Mr. Green a liar, but he is getting on years and the events in question didn't exactly happen yesterday. The memory is an imperfect thing,

So he's just incompetent to report his observations then...and that's any better?

and like it or not, some of us aren't going to accept anecdotes as evidence.

Bob H, Wallace family...need I go on?

My observations of your arguments lead me to the conclusion that you just don't want to see past your beliefs....

My observation of your arguments is that they are full of hypocritical double standards and differing levels of demanded support, favoring the "skeptical" position.