Mr Green Clarifies His Challenge

[masterbarber]

Folks, Let's stay on topic so we can keep the thread open. Leave the snide comments and dramatics out of it and simply discuss the topic in an adult manner. As always, your prompt attention is appreciated.

[Guest ajciani]

I thank Kit for posting the Blue Creek track photos. I can conclude several things rather easily.

• They were not made by the Wallace stompers, at least, not the ones commonly shown in photographs. I am not aware of any Wallace stomper that quite matches the prints. The prints at Blue Creek clearly have a different outline than the stompers would or could make.
  
• Whatever made those prints was at least 4 times heavier than a man. There are several human shoe prints to compare them with in the surrounding dirt. The bigfoot prints have roughly the same amount of compaction, but they have about 4 times the area. So something at least 600 to 800 lbs.
  
• The trackway shows very little straddle. At points where there was a slight change in direction, the straddle is increased accordingly. For example, if you veer right while on your right foot, your left foot comes over the mid line. If you veer left, then your left foot heads further out. There is no duck footing. It definitely looks like the trackway of a wild human. It definitely looks like a trackway that was created by a walking process.
  

If it was faked, I can only think of three (well, two and a half) ways.

1) Someone had stompers, and walked on stilts while carrying an extra 400 to 600 lbs on their back.

2a) Someone familiar with tracking created a human trackway in scale to the Blue Creek environment, recorded the positions and orientations of the prints. Scaled it up, and then used a 600 to 800 lb stomping jig to plant natural looking tracks.

2b) Someone very familiar with tracking used a 600 to 800 lb stomping jig to create a convincing looking trackway with all the right features.

[kitakaze]

• Whatever made those prints was at least 4 times heavier than a man. There are several human shoe prints to compare them with in the surrounding dirt. The bigfoot prints have roughly the same amount of compaction, but they have about 4 times the area. So something at least 600 to 800 lbs.

[Guest LAL]

I thank Kit for posting the Blue Creek track photos. I can conclude several things rather easily.

• They were not made by the Wallace stompers, at least, not the ones commonly shown in photographs. I am not aware of any Wallace stomper that quite matches the prints. The prints at Blue Creek clearly have a different outline than the stompers would or could make.
• Whatever made those prints was at least 4 times heavier than a man. There are several human shoe prints to compare them with in the surrounding dirt. The bigfoot prints have roughly the same amount of compaction, but they have about 4 times the area. So something at least 600 to 800 lbs.
• The trackway shows very little straddle. At points where there was a slight change in direction, the straddle is increased accordingly. For example, if you veer right while on your right foot, your left foot comes over the mid line. If you veer left, then your left foot heads further out. There is no duck footing. It definitely looks like the trackway of a wild human. It definitely looks like a trackway that was created by a walking process.

If it was faked, I can only think of three (well, two and a half) ways.

1) Someone had stompers, and walked on stilts while carrying an extra 400 to 600 lbs on their back.

2a) Someone familiar with tracking created a human trackway in scale to the Blue Creek environment, recorded the positions and orientations of the prints. Scaled it up, and then used a 600 to 800 lb stomping jig to plant natural looking tracks.

2b) Someone very familiar with tracking used a 600 to 800 lb stomping jig to create a convincing looking trackway with all the right features.

A stomping machine was ruled out at the time because there was no spatter around the prints. You didn't mention the concrete weighted stompers hoisted on high lead logging equipment that wasn't on the site (unless the night watchman failed to notice it). Man on stilts planting stompers stright down to get clear ridges between ball and toes and between the toes while weighted down with 600-800 lbs. makes sense. So when do you collect the $100,000?

[Guest]

I too thank Kitakaze for posting these images. I remember a discussion on the old board on foot impressions and remember someone demonstrating how the ridge of dirt directly behind the toes which is quite evident in these photos is the result of a rigid stomper as it rotates about the toes thus pushing that ridge up as can be seen. I am convinced most of these images are fakes.

If someone is running the resultant load of the feet, whether fake or real greatly amplifies the body weight due to the increased accleration of the downward movement, so that could account for the greater depth.

Also I believe when one runs the feet tend to form more of a straight line than normal walking, which seems to be the case with the trackway shown.

[bipedalist]

I can't imagine anyone on stilts with the dexterity to pull this off. But I can imagine the use of the stilts as splints for the broken leg/arm

garnered from the attempts.

[Guest LAL]

You do know there are other Hooker photos that don't show a line and it's not known if they were taken in 1967, don't you? Apparently they were taken on Onion Mountain.

[Guest LAL]

I can't imagine anyone on stilts with the dexterity to pull this off. But I can imagine the use of the stilts as splints for the broken leg/arm

garnered from the attempts.

Do we have any casts of butt prints showing that?

Let's face it - real bigfoot prints look fake.

[Guest]

Not a chance, you keep saying it, such as here:

I said let's see the dynamic foot movement. You are the only one who talked about openly calling a man a liar. That's your words, not mine.

When you are badgering for "proof" of something a man says when you have NO evidence that he is not being truthful, you are baldly accusing him of dishonesty.

I am not convinced the tracks showed dynamic foot movement because there is no support for that besides a statement, however comparison of the tracks to the fake feet so support that those feet did make the tracks.

Those "comparisons" have been shot down multiple times right here in this forum by multiple posters.

And you know the feet don't resemble the original Titmus tracks how?

Because Dr Meldrum examined casts of the original Titumus tracks as well as the "presentation" casts and compared them both to the stompers, finding the stompers to be crude simulacrums of the presentation casts.

And that has what to do with the Onion Mtn. tracks?

Go back and look at what I was saying when I brought up Bob H. I was pointing out that there is abundant good evidence that BobH IS in fact not telling the truth when he says he was Patty, whereas there is absolutely ZERO good evidence that John Green did NOT observe track dynamism at BCM.

You do understand sarcasm don't you? Of course Green never said that anything Wallace said or did was the truth, Wallace had a long running reputation as a hoaxer and prankster. Why then would it be brought up that his family lied and trashed his reputation? Wallace hoaxing those tracks fits right IN to his reputation.

The family has been utterly UNable to reproduce trackways to the accepted standard with the stompers. We have unimpeached testimony from at least two sources that the family is lying, and has attempted to get others to lie for them.

So, no, I do not agree with either of your conclusions that Ray Wallace: 1) engaged in field hoaxing of tracks or that 2) Greene and others were taken in by Wallace in any way.

[Guest]

One an accused hoaxer the others likely involved same, really?

You accept their rebutted and refuted claims of hoaxing without reservation or supporting evidence while denying Green's testimony about what he observed at BCM.

[Guest]

I love how the very first pic you posts blows your claim straight out of the water. The tracks and the stompers do NOT share the same dimensions and the contours, while grossly similar (which is to be expected, given that they were carved in imitation of legitimate track casts), don't align properly.

The rest is the same tired litany of photos (including one labled "Wallace tracks" with NO evidence to prove that Wallace had a **** thing to do with them) that you continue to assert (entirely WITHOUT basis) are "Wallace tracks", thus giving yourself a nice little closed-loop arguement, to wit: The pictures prove that Ray Wallace faked these trackways becasue these pictures are of trackways that Ray Wallace faked.

Unfortunately for you, I see right through that sort of spurious logic.

[Guest]

Green is making a claim unsupported by the documented evidence. So does Bob Heironimus. Green says other people back him up? So does Bob.

No, Green is making a claim that is not documented to your satisfaction. BoB H is making claims that not only are internally inconsistent (as has been pointed out repeatedly) but are actively refuted by outside evidence and unrebutted other testimony.

HUGE difference.

Luckily, as the poll shows, most of us know an obvious hoax when we see one.

Argumentum ad popularity fallacy.

[Guest]

Which proves exactly what aj was saying: the tracks are equally impressed DESPITE the increased surface area of the foot, which means the corresponding weight of the creature making the larger track must have been far greater than that of the man.

[kitakaze]

I can't imagine anyone on stilts with the dexterity to pull this off. But I can imagine the use of the stilts as splints for the broken leg/arm

garnered from the attempts.

Who needs stilts or trucks? Think like a hoaxer. Look at those shots along the logging road. There are human tracks everywhere. You wouldn't have even needed to put the stompers on your feet. You could literally walk along the road and bend down and plop the stompers with your hand wherever you like.

You could even be a wild trickster and do insane things like put grossly mismatched prints side by side just to screw with the Bigfoot chasers.

Look, it worked...

Highly anomalous... highly anomalous...

[wolftrax]

When you are badgering for "proof" of something a man says when you have NO evidence that he is not being truthful, you are baldly accusing him of dishonesty.

Those "comparisons" have been shot down multiple times right here in this forum by multiple posters.

Because Dr Meldrum examined casts of the original Titumus tracks as well as the "presentation" casts and compared them both to the stompers, finding the stompers to be crude simulacrums of the presentation casts.

Go back and look at what I was saying when I brought up Bob H. I was pointing out that there is abundant good evidence that BobH IS in fact not telling the truth when he says he was Patty, whereas there is absolutely ZERO good evidence that John Green did NOT observe track dynamism at BCM.

The family has been utterly UNable to reproduce trackways to the accepted standard with the stompers. We have unimpeached testimony from at least two sources that the family is lying, and has attempted to get others to lie for them.

So, no, I do not agree with either of your conclusions that Ray Wallace: 1) engaged in field hoaxing of tracks or that 2) Greene and others were taken in by Wallace in any way.

So........ I take it you cannot post anything showing dynamic movement in the tracks....