Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest]

So says you, I think it's a great example of how someone with a lot more on the line than Justin do stupid stuff.

Justin IMO was hounded by researchers with their own motivations to go back to the site.

Is it not correct he never sought any of this out even from the beginning on the taxidermy site, someone directed researchers to him.

So IMO he's had people pushing him along the whole time, that have their own agendas.

There are only two people that know the truth and both seem to be and have been reluctantly involved in the "research".

So at this point we'er back to people that vet his story who weren't even there and a piece of bear meat, that doesn't exactly support the story so much.

It's an awesome story but that's all it is at this point.

You think he bluffed his way thru this? After he passed the 1st polygraph he must have figured the sky was the limit?

I have addressed this before - The tissue seemed like a dead ringer for what was shot, and it provided MUCH more accessible and convincing prrof of what wsa shot. After all, as soon as it was submitted, Melba confirmed that it matched unknown primate. So the boots seemed like a nice after-thought, but not necessary.

Not necessary??? The steak was circumstantial any way you slice it.

[bipedalist]

What kind of special preparation has been taken to keep the boots and their contents intact for sample preparation and testing BTW?

Edited December 29, 2012 by bipedalist

[Guest Scout1959]

You think he bluffed his way thru this? After he passed the 1st polygraph he must have figured the sky was the limit?

Humans can easily get addicted to 'fame' of any kind and like any addiction you want more and more.

I do think that the thought that he ended up getting swept up in it all is a valid consideration. And memories work that every time you relive them you are actually on one scale or another re-writing them. Especially if some trauma occurred in conjunction with the incident something that you don't really want to remember so you replace it with a new memory.

But that's enough for me I've stated my opinion and that and a couple of bucks might get you a coffee at Starbucks.

[Guest Tyler H]

Not necessary??? The steak was circumstantial any way you slice it.

But Melba had already confirmed them as Squatch. I had no strong reason to mistrust this diagnosis at that time.They are no longer circumstantial, once they are proof of what was hoped for, no???

[Guest BartloJays]

Not necessary??? The steak was circumstantial any way you slice it.

Giganto, go back to earlier in both threads (and my stmt with dna results release) and I explain in depth why the boots haven't been tested as I've always felt they were the most crucial piece of evidence.

[Guest Tyler H]

Bart, All

I just want everyone to know - when any two people work together on anything, there will occasionally be differences in the way they want to approach things. Bart and I have worked extremely well together, and never fought about anything, and he was great to brain-storm with - but we did have different plans of attack.

When I started working with these samples, it was mostly a solo project (one in which I was backed by my Canadian research partner Gary Cronin). My plan was to have real time updates on a facebook page, each time I got news from the Trent University lab. Then you all would have been able to take the roller-coaster ride along with us.

But, as I proceeded, Bart and I kept having more contact, and Bart became really invaluable. He is much more plugged in to the Squatch community than I am, as the community is much more US based than Canada based. Bart also had proximity to Justin, and a close friendship with Justin - I felt that was invaluable as well, since so much of the credibility of this story rested on Justin's character. Not to mention the fact that I have always seen Bart as one of a rare breed of objective, diligent, evidence driven Squatchers. When my lab encountered some difficulties at the outset, Bart rightfully undertook to have a second lab in the US work on the sample so that my Canadian lab could either be supported, or challenged. Regardless of what transpired with my lab, this would have been a desired check and balance.

Bart says that had his results confirmed unknown primate, he would have sat on them, and allowed Melba to proceed with releasing her results. I must say here that that was never my plan - my results were coming out regardless of what they were. Again, my plan was to have them revealed in basically real time on facebook as this proceeded. (I am glad I didn't do that in hindsight now though, as I think it could have spooked the lab, and compromised their willingness to proceed.)

I think those two things, and this last thing are probably the only three things where we had different approaches in mind:

I was willing to offer an NDA with Melba, mostly because I was starting to mistrust that she had any intention of following through on her request that I allow her to persuade me to re-think the release of my results by providing evidence. Each option I gave her seemed to get met with excuses, so my plan was to offer the world - an extremely low threshold for what I would accept as "supporting evidence" and the promise of some sort of NDA. If she would still not comply, then it seemed reasonable that I should move on without her input, and feel confident that she was not sincere, and that I had given her every chance. But I do want to make it clear that I would NOT have signed up on any NDA that would have tied my hands in anyway about my info. If she wanted an NDA to ensure that I did not divulge any of HER proprietary info, I had no issue with that. I have never wanted to steal her thunder, or spoil any valid work she has done.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Tyler H

[Rockape]

I have a question for both Bart and Tyler, and will apologize beforehand if this has been asked or answered already, but the thread is fast moving and I haven't been around much the last few days to really keep up...

But what I wonder is, did the labs who did the tests on the samples you submitted know beforehand that you suspected they could be from a Sasquatch?

[Cisco]

Assuming everybody is telling the truth, insofar as they know it, then I think the following is the most realistic scenario, based on the facts presented so far and, again, assuming everybody is being completely honest. This scenario should account for all of the info presented so far.

1. JS shoots two Bigfoot as he claims

2. Right after the shooting, JS removes a piece of tissue from one of the bodies and takes it home.

3. JS gets swept up by researchers and they organize a trip out to the shooting site where a piece of flesh is discovered by a tracking dog.

4. JS has no reason to think the flesh is from a bear as it resembles the piece he had originally taken and presented to MK.

5. MK has results that show her sample came from a Bigfoot

6. Tyler and Barts results, from the sample found during the search, show black bear.

7. We have two different results because there are two different samples.

8. JS can't tell Bart & Tyler about the original sample submitted to MK because he signed some legal documents that prohibit him from revealing this.

9. JS is genuinely surprised that the second sample is black bear as he just assumed it came from the same animal from which he obtained his first sample.

10. Nobody is wrong, all results are true, nobody is telling a lie. The only thing that may not be disclosed is the fist sample. Which, by the way, would account for the physical differences between the two, as per MK.

Just to be clear, this is all conjecture on my part but would explain the confusion that has been ongoing since the release of DNA info from Bart & Tyler.

Did I miss anything?

[Guest Tyler H]

Haha - I just delineated 3 areas where Bart and I differed, but you have just hit on another. And actually, this is likely the most substantive issue that we differed on.

I saw my role as an investigative advocate.

I had no qualms about pushing my lab, and arguing (not confrontationally, but in a science minded, challenging way) with them to advocate for "unknown primate" results. I was worried that they could take the easy way out, or not see some possibilities that might be visible to someone who looked at the data with "squatch glasses". At the same time, I was sure that the science could not really be swayed to a point of invalidation, so I had no qualms that I would actually be hurting any data. I saw the scientists job to be impartial and objective, but I saw my job as one where I would poke and prod and vet their actions. I didn't feel as strong of a compulsion as Bart did, to stay "neutral" in my opinions - they were the scientists, I was the investigator and bit of an advocate. That being said, I had only a 50/50 expectation, at best, that this tissue would turn out to be primate, since I was privy to a recent conversation that Justin had had with the other camp. That conversation gave me massive, grave concerns about the validity of their claims, and about the sort of tissue we were dealing with.

So, when I spoke to Trent, I laid most of it out on the table. I said that a hunter felt that this could be an uncatalogued primate. At the same time, I told them I had some reservations about it, but either way, we needed to get to the bottom of it. They gave very heartening assurances that they would do what it took to get to the bottom of the situation, and that the science would be the science regardless of any claims or opinions.

Haha - I just delineated 3 areas where Bart and I differed, but you have just hit on another. And actually, this is likely the most substantive issue that we differed on.

I saw my role as an investigative advocate.

I had no qualms about pushing my lab, and arguing (not confrontationally, but in a science minded, challenging way) with them to advocate for "unknown primate" results. I was worried that they could take the easy way out, or not see some possibilities that might be visible to someone who looked at the data with "squatch glasses". At the same time, I was sure that the science could not really be swayed to a point of invalidation, so I had no qualms that I would actually be hurting any data. I saw the scientists job to be impartial and objective, but I saw my job as one where I would poke and prod and vet their actions. I didn't feel as strong of a compulsion as Bart did, to stay "neutral" in my opinions - they were the scientists, I was the investigator and bit of an advocate. That being said, I had only a 50/50 expectation, at best, that this tissue would turn out to be primate, since I was privy to a recent conversation that Justin had had with the other camp. That conversation gave me massive, grave concerns about the validity of their claims, and about the sort of tissue we were dealing with.

So, when I spoke to Trent, I laid most of it out on the table. I said that a hunter felt that this could be an uncatalogued primate. At the same time, I told them I had some reservations about it, but either way, we needed to get to the bottom of it. They gave very heartening assurances that they would do what it took to get to the bottom of the situation, and that the science would be the science regardless of any claims or opinions.

Assuming everybody is telling the truth, insofar as they know it, then I think the following is the most realistic scenario, based on the facts presented so far and, again, assuming everybody is being completely honest. This scenario should account for all of the info presented so far.

1. JS shoots two Bigfoot as he claims

2. Right after the shooting, JS removes a piece of tissue from one of the bodies and takes it home.

3

Just to be clear, this is all conjecture on my part but would explain the confusion that has been ongoing since the release of DNA info from Bart & Tyler.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you missed the parts where EVERYONE that has worked with Justin continually asserts (as has Justin) that Justin claims to have NEVER taken anything off the body.

[Cisco]

Tyler, I didn't miss that part. I was just trying to create a scenario in which everything discussed, thus far, would make sense without calling anybody a liar. This is the only scenario that allowed for that. All other scenarios would involve somebody being dishonest.

If JS was locked tight into some legal agreement with MK then he would be unable to disclose this to you or Bart. Again, this would be the only way that everybody involved could 100% be telling the truth. Now, if there was only one sample and one sample only, that would mean that somebody made a mistake in the DNA analysis or was out and out lying. Since it's against the rules of this forum to call any member a liar, I'm treading very lightly.

As I already mentioned, it's all conjecture but this is the only scenario I can think of that allows for everybody being honest.

[Guest]

For me, I think the damage is done here. These samples coming back as bear will taint anything related to the Smeja subject and will be easily dismissed from here forward. Best to move on and find another wagon to hitch our star to.

Unless Ketchum has retained a piece of the tissue she received from Smeja.

[Guest crabshack]

I had no qualms about pushing my lab, and arguing (not confrontationally, but in a science minded, challenging way) with them to advocate for "unknown primate" results.

And thats why you send it in blind, you will never get the truth.

[Guest]

But Melba had already confirmed them as Squatch. I had no strong reason to mistrust this diagnosis at that time.They are no longer circumstantial, once they are proof of what was hoped for, no???

I can understand why you and Bart didn't see it necessary, but in hindsight this is exactly the reason why the boots should have been tested. Without corroboration, you have zero proof and the steak remains circumstantial. Had Melba also tested the boots, she could have confirmed whether the DNA was from the same individual solidifying proof via non-circumstantial evidence.

Giganto, go back to earlier in both threads (and my stmt with dna results release) and I explain in depth why the boots haven't been tested as I've always felt they were the most crucial piece of evidence.

You were 100% right.

[Rockape]

Haha - I just delineated 3 areas where Bart and I differed, but you have just hit on another. And actually, this is likely the most substantive issue that we differed on.

I saw my role as an investigative advocate.

I had no qualms about pushing my lab, and arguing (not confrontationally, but in a science minded, challenging way) with them to advocate for "unknown primate" results. I was worried that they could take the easy way out, or not see some possibilities that might be visible to someone who looked at the data with "squatch glasses". At the same time, I was sure that the science could not really be swayed to a point of invalidation, so I had no qualms that I would actually be hurting any data. I saw the scientists job to be impartial and objective, but I saw my job as one where I would poke and prod and vet their actions. I didn't feel as strong of a compulsion as Bart did, to stay "neutral" in my opinions - they were the scientists, I was the investigator and bit of an advocate. That being said, I had only a 50/50 expectation, at best, that this tissue would turn out to be primate, since I was privy to a recent conversation that Justin had had with the other camp. That conversation gave me massive, grave concerns about the validity of their claims, and about the sort of tissue we were dealing with.

So, when I spoke to Trent, I laid most of it out on the table. I said that a hunter felt that this could be an uncatalogued primate. At the same time, I told them I had some reservations about it, but either way, we needed to get to the bottom of it. They gave very heartening assurances that they would do what it took to get to the bottom of the situation, and that the science would be the science regardless of any claims or opinions.

OK, so you were upfront about the sample potentially being from a BF, but Bart held that back from his lab, I'm correct there?

Something you said in an earlier post about deciding not to post the lab info in a timeline fashion on FB because you thought it might "spook" the lab got me to thinking that it was possible these labs just did not want to say the sample came back as unknown primate and told you both bear just to get rid of you. Do either of you think that's a possibility?

[Guest crabshack]

And you guys that know him, were the contents of Justin's freezer really raided / stolen?