Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest slimwitless]

Remember when some folks were incredulous that only a small piece of flesh was found with no associated bones or other body parts? As unlikely as it sounds, at least proponents could argue the bigfoot tribe of hybridized humans/intelligent Pongos removed the bodies - perhaps even burying them. I'm no Grizzly Adams but I'm pretty sure bears don't do that. I'm interested to hear how this critique has evolved in light of the idea the sample might be a lowly black bear (with flowing blonde locks). I guess this question only makes sense if you believe the sample is bear *and* the story of its retrieval is true (such people do exist).

[Guest]

Derek, you know I'll happily take a big bite of crow off the plate you can serve it to me on, when the time comes - and I'll shake your hand for it. (Just make sure it's plucked and cooked). Just tough to stretch my faith beyond the evidence I have at hand.

Understood Tyler, but no crow serving needs to happen if and when the time comes. There will be no " I told ya " coming from my mouth ever, to anyone. You and I have butted heads over this, but I have respect for anyone purely looking for the truth in the name of science. You and Bart have said all along that nothing would make you happier than for Melba to be right. You guys have made that very clear.

DR

[Guest Theagenes]

Via hearsay, I had believed Melba had at one type said her study pointed to a haplotype that matches Justin- haplotype A.

The latest word from Melba herself though, and from some near her, is that that is inaccurate, and the genome she has does not match Justin's haplotype A.

Tyler or Derek, do know you which haplotype she is associating with BF? In Stubstad's report which was early on (and maybe before she had Justin's sample) he said that she had three mtDNA samples -- two were haplotype H* and one was haplotype L1a2. But that was at the beginning of her study so things may have changed considerably since then. Thanks.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Theagenes

[southernyahoo]

I've vetted your proposals with people whose area of expertise are more closely aligned with genetic testing than yours seem to be, Tomafoot. NO insult, just seems to be the case.

"However, this may have little relevance with regard to unknown or unanticipated sources"

Perhaps we have different understandings of how the mammalian primers work. In my understanding, if BF is mammal, then it has certain conserved areas that are the same in ALL mammals. Why would this one mammal be the only exception?

Your Universal primers turned up human mtDNA and the human specific primers didn't produce the nuDNA to provide further ID. This is consistent with many previous results. According to Ketchums release, the male lineage which is in the nuDNA is whats novel, and it is better to target the tissue like Ketchum did to access it. If it is a mosaic of modern human/ unknown as Ketchum says, it will have disruptions that will cause specific primers to fail. I think this is why the next generation sequencing succeeded because it works with short segments and assembles them to align to a reference human template. This is all automated, so there is no magic or interference on Ketchum's part.

[Guest Tyler H]

Your Universal primers turned up human mtDNA and the human specific primers didn't produce the nuDNA to provide further ID. This is consistent with many previous results. According to Ketchums release, the male lineage which is in the nuDNA is whats novel, and it is better to target the tissue like Ketchum did to access it. If it is a mosaic of modern human/ unknown as Ketchum says, it will have disruptions that will cause specific primers to fail. I think this is why the next generation sequencing succeeded because it works with short segments and assembles them to align to a reference human template. This is all automated, so there is no magic or interference on Ketchum's part.

Understood - and I realize you don't have Bart's Lab's info yet... but my release statement did mention that my lab matched the mtDNA to Justin's haplotype, and I mention that Bart's lab matched the nDNA to Justin as well.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

Easy solution: Get a lab to test the exact same sample Dr. Ketchum tested. The one she sequenced an entire genome from.

[Guest]

They did. It was bear!

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

That's exactly what the Melba critics want to believe. But even Tyler knows there's a chance that Justin didn't give a piece from the same animal.

[Guest]

Well then why won't Melba clear that up?

[Guest]

^Because she cannot discuss the details of the tests pending the release of the paper. You know that rockie, having been told that often enough.

And Tyler, no I will NOT "put it to rest". Pony up a verifiable link to a direct statement by Ketchum where she claims the Smeja sample as one of her "unknowns". Otherwise it's hearsay and rumor, just like "angel DNA", et al. Unsupported. Unsubstantiated. And being inappropriately used to try to trash her study data unseen.

[Guest]

She did claim it, only Tyler can't put up any links, or give any sources because the sources are under an NDA.

[Guest]

Going all in I see Mulder.

If you think Tyler and Bart have shown you all their cards i am betting you are in for a surprise. If you can read between the lines you might have picked up a bit of what they are saying.

It seems pretty obvious to anyone who has followed this thread.

Edited January 8, 2013 by rockiessquatching

[Guest FootDude]

Going all in I see Mulder.

The only ones going 'all in' are Bart and Tyler. Sound critical analysis reasoning demands that evidence and data be considered, and up till now the only data and evidence we have shows Justin Smeja more than likely gave B and T bear meat. That's the only thing that can be reasonably deduced so far. Period.

Though Ketchum's report could indeed be quite flawed, that is impossible to determine at this time.

Indeed I believe logic and common sense demand judgement be held off till a copy of the actual report and all it's data and conclusions are made available to the public.

In the end what also demands to be considered is why is B and T are such a rush to skewer the 'Ketchum report' before it's release?

Who benefits from that and how?

Edited January 8, 2013 by FootDude

[Guest Tyler H]

Easy solution: Get a lab to test the exact same sample Dr. Ketchum tested. The one she sequenced an entire genome from.

When Melba's camp wanted to discuss my lab's findings, I was asked if there was any sort of evidence that would convince me to rethink the release of my data. There was discussion of Melba allowing further testing on the tissue samples she still has left from Justin's submissions. Unfortunately, those overtures were never followed through on, so that has not happened to date.

^Because she cannot discuss the details of the tests pending the release of the paper. You know that rockie, having been told that often enough.

And Tyler, no I will NOT "put it to rest". Pony up a verifiable link to a direct statement by Ketchum where she claims the Smeja sample as one of her "unknowns". Otherwise it's hearsay and rumor, just like "angel DNA", et al. Unsupported. Unsubstantiated. And being inappropriately used to try to trash her study data unseen.

Why won't you do what I suggested? Why won't you ask the person responsible for Justin's sample getting into Melba's hands, and who was the direct liason that conversed about her efforts, to comment on whether or not Melba claims that Justin's sample is this novel primate/hominid?

Just ask Derekfoot to answer your question. Or is his word not good enough on this for you either?

The only ones going 'all in' are Bart and Tyler. Sound critical analysis reasoning demands that evidence and data be considered, and up till now the only data and evidence we have shows Justin Smeja more than likely gave B and T bear meat. That's the only thing that can be reasonably deduced so far. Period.

Though Ketchum's report could indeed be quite flawed, that is impossible to determine at this time.

Indeed I believe logic and common sense demand judgement be held off till a copy of the actual report and all it's data and conclusions are made available to the public.

In the end what also demands to be considered is why is B and T are such a rush to skewer the 'Ketchum report' before it's release?

Who benefits from that and how?

LOL - you kill me Footdude. You certainly don't know where to put your "Period"s ... And that's not 'the only thing that can be reasonably deduced so far. Period.' I guess when you say "Sound critical analysis reasoning demands that evidence and data be considered" you mean to not consider any firsthand knowledge we have from the Ketchum camp (because tha tis not your kind of "data"). You mean you just want to go by the heresay and lofty claims that you have from that camp, put full faith in them, and then attack the ONLY hard science that you have seen, in an effort to protect your savior.

Please describe how I have been in a rush to skewer Ketchum. I have released results, and I have discussed the implications. I would be massively complicit in anything that is amiss, if I turned a blind eye and said nothing.

Now... you raised the question - what do I POSSIBLY stand to gain, by 'skewering' what was looking to finally be proof of something that I have been gagging for, for nearly 22 years? If you want me to act like a complacent sheep, and just take what I'm being fed, and live up to the stereotype that the scientific community and the world at large has of us - sorry, you got the wrong guy. I dug into the evidence and went where it lead. If it lead to support for Melba - I'm ecstatic. If it lead where it went instead, I'm super bummed. But I don't get to turn a blind eye when I see a risk to the community and the topic and the people that I care about.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Tyler H

[Guest BartloJays]

Understood Tyler, but no crow serving needs to happen if and when the time comes. There will be no " I told ya " coming from my mouth ever, to anyone. You and I have butted heads over this, but I have respect for anyone purely looking for the truth in the name of science. You and Bart have said all along that nothing would make you happier than for Melba to be right. You guys have made that very clear.

DR

Big thumbs up to you Derek!

Many of you know that Derek and I are very, very close friends, in addition to being very supportive of each other’s field efforts. If it wasn’t for Derek, I’ll tell you right now, I would’ve never been involved with this Sierras investigation, and therefore wouldn’t have had an opportunity to obtain the thermal footage I got 300 yds from the purported shooting almost 3 months later

last Aug 23^rd (actually 24^th as I started filming them at 1:30 AM in the morning). I’m very grateful for that opportunity as well as grateful for his friendship as I think he’s hands down (Mionczynski aside) the best “woodsman†researcher in the field. Though I’m a creature of the night employing primarily thermal research strategies, I couldn’t hold a candle to him during daylight hours. Matter of fact, I was approached pretty heavy by multiple production companies last year about being the front man for a “survivor –type†research show encompassing many aspects we’d all like to see inclusive in a bigfoot research TV show (but don’t they all say that). Derek is so strong in areas that I believe I’m either still deficient in even after a decade of physical research, compared to a lifetime for him, or maybe areas I just know enough to be dangerous say, that I insisted I would only consider that TV concept with him right at my side. Needless to say, neither opportunity materialized as the network wasn’t ready and my heart wasn’t in it yet….as the father of two young children (both genetically hearing impaired, though successfully implanted) TV has always been a secondary, “if the shoe fits just right†thing with me (primary objective is “discovery†for me) because I know firsthand what my best friends on FB go through daily and I’ll never get that time back with my children. Maybe down the road.

Anyways, for those following this saga, it was probably inevitable to suspect Derek and I were headed for some level of heated confrontation. Though that clash did eventually happen privately, I’m happy to report it was with great respect for both each other and each other’s position and I believe our friendship will endure stronger than ever regardless of outcomes. Derek’s issue, and remember, he’s privy to more in depth information and analysis directly with Dr. Ketchum and her affiliates work, wasn’t that Tyler and I (with Justin’s urging) undertook independent testing. Matter of fact, he knows why we did, understands what precipitated it from our perspective and isn’t afraid of completely independent examination. The issue for him was merely “timing†(prior to the eventual release of her paper). Based on what he knows internally, from his perspective, you can make an argument supporting that which need not unnecessarily delve into conspiracies, agendas and ulterior motives. Though we hoped for the best, Tyler and I had major concerns, we made a transparency commitment to you and followed through when we got conflicting reports to prepare everyone for what could be an impending disaster. Derek who’s a very loyal person (hence I trust him with anything) also made a commitment to see this study through with Dr. Ketchum and she’s given him enough information to feel extremely confident that in the end, flaws aside, the work she represents will stand. Though it’s an area we don’t agree, I assure you both Derek and I have the sincerest of intentions, we both prioritize “truth†over anything and both feel what we’re doing is right, though in the end, only one of us may be right completely. What we do agree on 110% is that we both hope he’s right and somehow our labs got it wrong.

What gets lost in all this is, yes we’re talking about a significant sample (Sierras tissue) but many, many more samples were sent in for processing by Derek and his team. Although the testing we undertook on just the Sierra’s tissue makes me and Tyler understandably discouraged (not defeated) I’d be willing to bet my right arm that there’s some very viable samples in there submitted by Derek.

Some food for thought, let me give everyone a scenario here not many have understandably not thought through because they haven’t been privy to our email communications yet. Let’s say hypothetically Dr. Ketchum’s study is successful and validated with next generation sequencing being the game-changer for example. In that case, I think the email communications back and forth with both labs (especially Trent) may contain significant clues with respect to some of their “difficulties†through processing which could ultimately help substantiate Dr. Ketchum’s study even more, particularly if she circumvented those same issues. Just something to think about and one of many reasons why I’d contend it was better this information was shared now as opposed to later.

The only ones going 'all in' are Bart and Tyler. Sound critical analysis reasoning demands that evidence and data be considered, and up till now the only data and evidence we have shows Justin Smeja more than likely gave B and T bear meat. That's the only thing that can be reasonably deduced so far. Period.

Though Ketchum's report could indeed be quite flawed, that is impossible to determine at this time.

Indeed I believe logic and common sense demand judgement be held off till a copy of the actual report and all it's data and conclusions are made available to the public.

In the end what also demands to be considered is why is B and T are such a rush to skewer the 'Ketchum report' before it's release?

Who benefits from that and how?

I'm sorry but you really have no idea what you're talking about and I'll be looking extra forward to having a public debate with you when "all" information is out.

Your logic is definitely contrarian. Disregard what we suspected internally (which you don't even know) based off mistrust and prophetic statements, bury conflicting results and wait indefinitely for a paper Tyler and I don't know is real or viable.

Stop hinting and insinuating something, have the guts to say it and put something of substance behind it if you think you have anything

Edited January 8, 2013 by BartloJays