Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest]

so I hand you a 5 dollar bill, you can look at it, and you know what it is. You can examine it closely, and know it is not counterfit. But if you chose to look at it under a 1000 power microscope, you would have to examine a whole lot of very high resolution "pictures", and be able to place them accurately, to be able to figure out it was a 5 dollar bill. Hell I could give you 1000 photos taken through my scope, and you could not identify even that it was US currency, let alone what denomination. It would take alot more pictures and alot more patience, and alot more flawless effort to even get to the point of IDing it as money, let alone a 5 dollar bill!

The analogy is not perfect, but hopefully you see my point. Getting alot more A&T&G&C's is not neccisarily more powerfull or more telling, sometimes it creates alot of obtusification!

It may not be perfect but it is about as good of an explanation as any, it's called getting lost in the woods for looking at moss growing on the bark of the trees.

[Guest]

The point is that what we've been learning in the last decade is the last 200,000 years or so of human evolution is far more complex than we thought. We're discovering new coeval species and sub-species nearly every couple of years and learning that interbreeding between them seems to be the rule not the exception. So making any kind of definitive statements like you're doing without any qualifiers is silly and no paleoanthropologist would do it. The picture is just too murky now. There are many things to criticize about MK's study, but the idea that humans interbred with another hominin around 15kya is actually one of the most believable aspects given what we've learned in the last few years. Also the 15kya date was an estimate; according to Stubstad the actual range including margin of error was 30-10kya.

On NA, I've posted several times in the Ketchum thread on why the proposed interbreeding almost certainly had to take place in the Old World for MK's scenario to work.

CTfoot, on H. heidelbergensis, the most recent dating is about 125kya. There is some evidence that isolated pockets of H. erectus survived until around 40kya though, so having isolated groups of older hominin forms is not at all impossible

As I recall, Ketchum said that 15K was pretty much *set in stone* with very little wiggle room. If this breeding event took place in the Old World of Europe..you're going to have a hell of a time explaining the migration of BF to NA in a relatively short period of time..and explaining why they are not still prevalent in Europe. Man migrated to NA, but is still present in Europe and Asia.

Edited January 19, 2013 by ronn1

[Guest]

CTfoot, on H. heidelbergensis, the most recent dating is about 125kya. There is some evidence that isolated pockets of H. erectus survived until around 40kya though, so having isolated groups of older hominin forms is not at all impossible

I saw a show where Dr. Meldrum mentioned something about evidence found in China that suggested a date of only 12,000 years, which I can't seem to verify anywhere else, have you heard anything about this?

[Guest]

BFE has an article this morning with some interesting claims from...maybe (it is one person's article) a recent conference. The author claims that David Paulides stated the Sierra Kills sample sent to the independent labs was a ruse by Smeja...wow. I don't know all these facts/speculations, but I do know Smeja has been willing to respond to anyone that approaches him, not the behavior of someone wanting to hide from authorities IMO. And if I recall, sometime back when those ideas were pushed at him, his supporters (Ketchum camp at that time) had ready explanations why he wasn't at risk, or why Ketchum did not report the kills/sample on reviewing, or testing and instead retaining for this paper. At the very least his support through that study seems at risk, or over?

I also favor an H.erectus line...but it seems like they need a Tapetum Lucidum....based on witness of eyeshine...can that feature pop up so long after split with Lemurs?

Edited January 21, 2013 by apehuman

[Guest]

Bart and Tyler saw this coming. It sounds like a cover story for bad results IMO and here's why. If bigfoot is human and Justin's afraid of prosecution, sending a different sample to another lab isn't going to fool the authorities when Ketchum already has a sample. If Ketchum can prove her results are legit, then Justin's already screwed with or without the other lab reports. I don't buy it, sounds like cya to me.

Now I suppose the next thing we will hear is that Ketchum doesn't have any of the sample left to prove it was indeed different.

Edited January 21, 2013 by squatting squatch

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

There still isn't any guarantee that Justin gave a sample from the same animal.

[Guest]

There still isn't any guarantee that Justin gave a sample from the same animal.

Justin's sample is inconclusive of a BF and always will be. It's a dead end. People can speculate about what he *may* have killed 'till the cows come home.... for some, that will remain a mystery forever. For me, his *tale* is highly suspicious.. I don't see the boots saving the day either.

Edited January 21, 2013 by ronn1

[Guest]

I also favor an H.erectus line...but it seems like they need a Tapetum Lucidum....based on witness of eyeshine...can that feature pop up so long after split with Lemurs?

I believe the tapetum lucidim has evolved independently in different types of animals; thus, perhaps it springing up again in a great ape is not that surprising? I'm not sure how one explains the loss of toolmaking and firemaking skills, though.

Justin's sample is inconclusive of a BF and always will be. It's a dead end.

Ketchum claims to be a proficient forensic geneticist. If she has a chain of custody of the sample received from Smeja, and if that sample turns out to be non-modern-human (or not any other known animal), it is hardly a dead end. Not by any means a definitive conclusion, either.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

Today from David Paulides:

"There were three specimens where an entire genome was extracted. One of the three was obtained by an individual that stated he killed a bigfoot. Dr. Ketchum still has a sizeable portion of the specimen left and will (if needed) allow a lab to conduct secondary testing on it to affirm the results obtained by that initial independent lab. There was another specimen sent by friends of this individual to another lab where the results revealed it was a bear. That “friend†that sent the sample is a member of a group that has routinely attacked and slandered NABS many times in the past. I’ve seen photos of each sample, they look entirely different. The proof is in the DNA, period."

[Guest BartloJays]

David is either lying or speaking out of ignorance (I’d like to think it’s the latter) as Dr. Ketchum was given the opportunity (was her idea initially) to test the rest of her sample from Justin with a third-party lab and after initially agreeing with us on this prior to releasing our Trent report, she came up with every evasive tactic and excuse in the book to avoid it. Eventually claiming that additional party testing “wasn’t needed.†We have this all documented via email.

David is being unnecessarily dramatic here and using my longtime affiliation with the BFRO as a smokescreen attempt as no one in the BFRO is slandering or talking about Paulides, and if they were…let’s say for argument’s sake….what would that have to do with the results our labs got or us undertaking independent testing as Paulides has nothing to do with anything regarding the Sierras incident other than him blindly and unnecessarily defending Ketchum here? She doesn’t need to be defended at this point as no one is attacking her…she made the claim (Sierras tissue was one of three genomes) and there happens to be a conflict in results that she will either have to circumvent through her own testing ….or…she’ll eventually have to answer for.

Very predictable as really when you think about it, and no surprise to Tyler and I, perpetuating the ridiculous suggestion Justin would sabotage himself and switch samples is the only perceptive escape hatch they have at this point. So essentially, they want and need you to believe that Justin (and Jack) are telling the truth about the shootings (remember if they were hoaxers than absolutely Melba’s a fraud as "grossly incompetent" would stretch credulity beyond imagination) but at the same time they need you to believe (based on our labs results which conflict with her claim) that Justin is an unethical and terrible person that would murder forest people than switch samples to cover his own butt.

Since Paulides, who has never met Justin and didn’t know a thing about him other than what Ketchum has told him and what I tried to tell him recently when we had a personal phone conversation, brought all this up publicly, let’s explore some facts so people can decide what’s really rational here.

First off, Justin has "never" expressed fear of prosecution to anyone, under any circumstance and the only persons perpetuating that claim (Paulides, Ketchum) ironically have two identical parallels, one is a defensive motive because of a vested interest that will conflict with what they’ve claimed or believe, and two, they either have never met or conversed with Justin or talked to him only once very briefly. I would challenge anyone who’s talked to Justin about this for more than 10 minutes to quote him about having any fear whatsoever of prosecution. Isn’t it also convenient that the accusation is rationalized to further perpetuate the supposed “human†element claimed within the DNA, which to my knowledge, as of today, has not been substantiated other than promises and or word of mouth. It’s this supposed “human†element in the mtDNA that would supposedly cause the fear incentive in Justin to do such a thing and cover himself according to them.

If this is the case, than why would Justin be willing to initiate contact with the CA Department of Fish & Game (which he did from my vehicle in December of 2011) with the intention of giving them a full report of the shootings by requesting a second “formal†interview in their office (after they visited his house unannounced for an “informal†interview) as long as I was in there with him? They returned his call almost 48 hrs later and declined due to lack of interest.

On one end it's insinuated by her and her people that Justin switched samples (first stated by her to Tyler when she learned of our results), on another end, many are contending it's the sophisticated and cutting edge “next-generation sequencingâ€â€™ testing that the two reputable labs we used didn’t employ and according to her supporters, surely would’ve been needed to identify the presence of a generic mammal as a primary contributor. So which of the two is it? It can’t be both.

In addition, Let’s look at the viability of switching pieces and “he took a fresh piece directly off the body†claim Ketchum made to Tyler when she called to request our results prior to our releasing the Trent report. Her claim was that the tissue she received was fresh, a healthy whitish color and even had postules. Just so everyone here understands with respect to the timeline, for this crazy suggestion to be true that she’s claiming “after†learning of our results, here’s the only possibilities (actually thought out) and you tell me if one of these is rational to you:

Before doing so however, please note the general timeline and notes because they are 100% accurate-

10/8/10 -purported shootings happen

Early November 2010- Justin talks with both Derek and Tyler separately after being put in touch through Ken Walker from Taxidermy forum

11/12/10- Justin and Jack make trip back to site and are unsuccessful in locating body of juvenile in snow but claim to recover hide-like tissue with help of bloodhound that they suspect by both circumstances and general location is related to adult subject shot on 10/8/10. Although we need to still check that particular GPS unit’s capability (Justin no longer has unit) if you cannot merely punch in exact site coordinates in the manner you see in the photo they took (wisely requested by Derek as proof they went back) than we have evidence they were back at site that day as claimed as the photo has a time-date stamp. In addition, several photos were taken of recovered tissue later in the same day back at Justin’s house….hence had the tissue been say, a frozen piece of bear in their freezer (doesn’t make sense for them to have bear hide w hair frozen as I stated prior, because they immediately dress and eat bears), both guys would’ve had to have the presence of mind to defrost the tissue before departing for the 2 ½ hr drive to the site to take GPS pic, then have the presence of mind to take subsequent pics of tissue defrosted back home later in the same day after the 2 ½ drive back so they would be stamped.

Mid-November 2010- Ketchum is sent a piece of that tissue for processing. The piece is about two thirds of a piece taken off the primary tissue (picture you’ve seen posted by Lindsay). The other 1/3 or so of that tissue piece is “salted†and given to my friend Wally Hersom (who never hinted at initiating testing of it) and was examined by Meldrum on site in July of 2011 and was also tested at my contracted Midwest lab facility (awaiting final report) and came back as “ample†black bear with Justin’s genomic DNA consistent with an amount expected for physical handling (which he did with bear hands). There’s actually a photograph of this tissue that’s different than the one you’ve seen from Lindsay of the primary piece because this particular piece as already been taken off and appeared much lighter in color. Justin is actually holding the piece in the picture and Melba had requested prior that it not be shared publicly.

Now, for them to have taken a fresh piece (as Ketchum claims) off the body to send to Dr. Ketchum, they would’ve either had to take the body, dead or alive (the adult btw because of color match) back home to Sacramento on Oct 8^th 2010 and kept it handy so 5 weeks later and ....without ever knowing there’s was going to be a request for skeletal remains, tissue or testing, they would’ve just cut a piece off and send it right in….well actually, Justin’s wife LOL, would’ve had to cut the piece off (she was the one who sent in the tissue to Ketchum per Justin’s instruction as he wasn’t home and he was trying to get it out asap). Oh and BTW, instead of just telling Derek or Tyler, “hey guys, just your luck, how about we just cut a nice steak off this body as it’s right here,†they would’ve had to lie and go through the trouble and gas money to go back to the site and spend all day there. A place that Justin initially refused to go back until he was coerced into doing so with potential incentive.

In addition, if Justin made the switch on tissue out of fear of prosecution as Paulides ignorantly claims, he would’ve had to have done it with the salted piece (the piece I had tested) to Wally way, way back in late 2010, over a year prior to Melba’s phone call (you’ll hear all about soon and took place just over a year ago) to Justin which created the mistrust and impetus to independently vet the sample he collected asap.

And one more thing, Justin didn’t know until six months ago that I was also having the “salted†piece tested…. because I didn’t know either. I came up with the idea to cover all loose ends and make sure the salted tissue came from the same subject species as the frozen tissue.

In addition consider the following and ask yourselves these questions and the rationale behind them:

If Justin was so scared of prosecution, why not just say (rather true or not) we hoaxed the event at this point and walk away (that simple)?

Justin thinks she’s “potentially†a fraud, yet he wishes to god she’d be right and wishes there was some way there was a mix-up in tissue pieces, but he’s certain there’s no possibility. Before that phone call he was promised the tissue they collected was from a bigfoot and to be patient, so what would compel him to take that risk and pursue independent testing?

If he has fear, why would he sabotage himself by perception and completely integrate himself further into the bigfoot community (I’m not his only friend, he’s friend’s with dozens of people) and make bigfoot research a bigger priority now in the last year and a half then his true life passion, “hunting?â€

Why would he do everything he can to prove his case after the fact including taking a polygraph (he always believed actually work) that I explained to him had high risk and very little upside? If he knew the tissue he had was merely a piece of bear, why do everything imaginable to protect it and carefully process it (over 25 pieces in separate mini frozen containers) including having some of us hold “emergency†pieces and have frozen pieces stashed in separate locations?

Why would Justin pursue the Dep of F&G and get his story on record?

I can go on and on but you get the point…..the guy is not concerned with being retroactively prosecuted for killing a species that has zero legislative protection or recognition for that matter.

Paulides has no idea what he’s talking about

Edited January 22, 2013 by BartloJays

[Big Stinky]

Bart thanks for the detailed summary and timeline on this truly extraordinary event. Much makes absolute sense. If there is a question that the two samples may be different and from two distinct species wouldn't it stand to reason that a simple screen (karyotyping) to determine chromosome numbers (46 human vs. 76 for black bear) solve this quite quickly ? I would think that there would be enough tissue on the sample to perform this analysis.

Also Bart can you give us your perspective on Justins finding of a piece of "stand alone" tissue of black bear that is the same color phase as the purported creature that was shot in very close proximity to the kill site. Having trouble on those odds Bart !

As always thanks for your diligence and transparency here Bart...

Big Stinky

[Cotter]

^ excellent questions!

[Guest Tyler H]

BFE has an article this morning with some interesting claims from...maybe (it is one person's article) a recent conference. The author claims that David Paulides stated the Sierra Kills sample sent to the independent labs was a ruse by Smeja...wow. I don't know all these facts/speculations, but I do know Smeja has been willing to respond to anyone that approaches him, not the behavior of someone wanting to hide from authorities IMO. And if I recall, sometime back when those ideas were pushed at him, his supporters (Ketchum camp at that time) had ready explanations why he wasn't at risk, or why Ketchum did not report the kills/sample on reviewing, or testing and instead retaining for this paper. At the very least his support through that study seems at risk, or over?

I also favor an H.erectus line...but it seems like they need a Tapetum Lucidum....based on witness of eyeshine...can that feature pop up so long after split with Lemurs?

What makes you bring up lemurs?

I believe the tapetum lucidim has evolved independently in different types of animals; thus, perhaps it springing up again in a great ape is not that surprising? I'm not sure how one explains the loss of toolmaking and firemaking skills, though.

Ketchum claims to be a proficient forensic geneticist. If she has a chain of custody of the sample received from Smeja, and if that sample turns out to be non-modern-human (or not any other known animal), it is hardly a dead end. Not by any means a definitive conclusion, either.

OK, I've really kept my lips zipped about Melba's credentials... but I will NOT stand idly by, while anyone asserts, or believes that she is a geneticist - proficient or otherwise.

Bart thanks for the detailed summary and timeline on this truly extraordinary event. Much makes absolute sense. If there is a question that the two samples may be different and from two distinct species wouldn't it stand to reason that a simple screen (karyotyping) to determine chromosome numbers (46 human vs. 76 for black bear) solve this quite quickly ? I would think that there would be enough tissue on the sample to perform this analysis.

Also Bart can you give us your perspective on Justins finding of a piece of "stand alone" tissue of black bear that is the same color phase as the purported creature that was shot in very close proximity to the kill site. Having trouble on those odds Bart !

As always thanks for your diligence and transparency here Bart...

Big Stinky

• You can't do a chromosome count without a fresh sample of blood (If I remember what Trent U told me), correctly.
  
• Odds of finding ANY bear flesh so close to where he saw the biped are almost infinitesimal. Bart and I have both commented on this before - A few things to remember are :
  
• 1. the area is frequently hunted, so finding scraps from any bear having been dressed in the field aroung there, are higher than our typical "what are the chances of finding a bear carcass in the woods" type of scenario.
  
• 2. THe tissue was not actually found extrememly close to where the animal is thought to have expired. It was 40-70yds away, from my understanding.
  
• 3.That color of bear is common in that area.
  

Beyond these factors, I would think you would need a statistician doing a couple weeks of research on the area to accurately be able to give you the "odds" of this happening.

I second what Bart has says. Melba's camp is in a difficult position - if they say Justin is a liar/hoaxer, then their assertions about his samples are fraudulent. If they say he is truthful, then their assertions about his samples are false, since he says we all got the same tissue. There are basically 2 options open to them:

• Choose a "hybrid" theory (which they already demonstrated a proclivity for) wherein Justin can be believed for the things that support them, but can't be believed for anything that does not support them. (Major feature of this hybrid theory is that Justin gave different samples to Melba than he did to Bart and I.)
  
• Say that the science of Bart's lab and my lab is deficient, but then MUST prove it. In this case, their evidence HAS to stand for itself at some point. If they take Justin's sample out of their study/report, in my view they are conceding that they made false claims about it.
  

Edited January 22, 2013 by Tyler H

[Cotter]

OK, I've really kept my lips zipped about Melba's credentials... but I will NOT stand idly by, while anyone asserts, or believes that she is a geneticist - proficient or otherwise.

Hi Tyler. I know you probably don't want to get into this much, but doesn't her schooling and experience dictate that she is indeed a geneticist?

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

Yup. She's been doing DNA testing for a long time.