Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest BartloJays]

I am objective, uninvolved and have absolutely no interest other than the pursuit of the truth of the matter of this witness, so it would seem then that we should agree. Would you have any objection to Justin pursuing the truth of the matter openly here with us?

All three of you guys are top-notch fine researchers and the shame is that these frictions are arising between you all unnecessarily, at least thus far I believe, because they are still hinging on assumptions on the relationships with the witness more than each other... and Melba is nothing but a distraction now in this matter prior to further clarifications from the witness... and any such gamesmanship is not a foremost pursuit of the truth... while the witness still remains silent.

Do any of you guys have any objections to Justin participating here openly?

Soj-

Appreciate the kind words as you know, I think you’re a fine and objective researcher yourself, but I just couldn’t disagree with you more and frankly find your assumption that any of us would compromise “foremost pursuit of the truth,†for any reason (no reason is justifiable), a bit offensive considering the time and attention to detail we’ve all put in to get the facts and share them. Neither this thread nor this “friction†you perceive (which in reality is exaggerated…but it’s understandable from an external standpoint) has anything to do with Justin in reality, as all three of us (for similar and fairly compelling personal reasons) believe Justin (and Jack) to different extents and all three of us have stuck our proverbial necks out in pursuit of the truth in every aspect of this Sierras saga. This thread, this discussion, this disagreement and “friction†stems from concerns of Dr. Ketchum, her actions, potential motives and potentially conflicting evidence based on her claim….period. That’s what this specific thread is about with the contradictory dna results from her claim.

As far as Justin goes, I’ve said from day one (and preached caution) that it doesn’t matter what any of us “think,†if the circumstantial (tissue) and non-circumstantial (boots) physical evidence doesn’t substantiate what was claimed, the Sierras shooting event will remain forever anecdotal in nature indefinitely, with the exception being new evidence coming to light (either supportive or contradictory) or evidence is retrieved with undeniable association to the original event (difficult to obtain). None of us, including Justin, are under any other illusion of what the burden of “proof†is or where it lies. I’m sure you would agree with that, so from Justin’s position knowing that, what good does it do him taking the time to continually entertain every single question and insinuation in defense of himself when he’s done so (and continues to) for two yrs?

You’ve known me for quite a while now, you know firsthand I’m a very detailed person and facts and making appropriate distinctions with consideration of ALL facts is important to me….if they don’t then we have no business investigating anything. “Character,†matters to me and I know Derek and Tyler live by that as well through their actions over the years….not cheap talk. I would also contend that the majority of people here are appreciative for those details and facts and care about them. Sure there’s a few who take opportunistic cheapshots and only care about having their opinion heard (with no consideration of facts) but they are definitely the minority. If you think that any of us (myself, Derek or Tyler) would bury evidence or truthful information that may come to light tomorrow and would happen to conflict with our current “beliefs,†then you haven’t been paying attention and don’t know us good enough to pay us any complements in the first place. In addition, you would know something ourselves or even our own witness (Justin) in this case doesn’t if that were the case.

Furthermore, with respect to Justin, none of us have any objections with his participation here or anywhere else for that matter, the witness (Justin) has been nothing short of cooperative and compliant since day one and fully integrated himself into bigfoot community making pursuit a newfound passion. He’s also made himself more available then any witness I’ve ever been associated with (that’s a fact). I think that’s unfair to assume because he’s not here specifically in this thread answering questions recently takes away from the efforts he’s made elsewhere and previously here at the BFF for the last 2 yrs. He just did a radio show the other day addressing almost everything that periodically sidetracked this thread. That doesn’t count? If you were unaware or not up to date you should perform some due diligence before making assumptions. I know you well enough to know that you’re typically a very diligent person.

On a side note, unrelated to your suggestion Sojourner, one thing I find especially irritating, and I’d bet both Tyler and Derek agree here, is when you’re relaying “facts†of any sort or even beliefs (not definitively stated as facts) from your investigations, the assumption is you’ve taken a position and are being defensive. Again, if you’ve paid attention, though it appears ironic, we’ve defended Dr. Ketchum if we are certain or know for a fact, untruths are being initiated against her.

It’s very simple, with respect to me as a person and a researcher, if I tell you something is a definitive “fact†(in other words, vouching as a statement of fact) then you can take it to the bank and I expect you to hold me to it. If something is a ‘belief,†(potentially subjective) I’m basing that belief on experience, available information etc… I could be wrong because I’m imperfect and human. By sharing facts and “details†which “may†lead to facts, does not mean anybody is trying to convince you of anything other than to consider facts before developing an opinion (for most people unfortunately their opinion is usually stated as a fact prematurely without consideration or digestion of pertinent information…usually provided for them).

One example is that I’ve never stated for a fact that the event happened as both Justin and Jack have claimed because I wasn’t standing with them that day. Because of multiple reasons (several from personal perspective) like eavesdropping on their conversation, intimately getting to know them and their families, Justin passing a poly 100% and getting what I (and witnesses with me) know is real thermal footage 300 yds from where he shot them, I “believe†the incident happened and I would contend have reasonable and justifiable reasons for believing so. But I would never state it as a fact to push my belief on others, because there’s crazier coincidences in life and not seeing the original incident with my own eyes…I could be wrong.

Everybody here prioritizes the truth and will stop at nothing to get it....period

Any thoughts as to what he may have meant by the following quotes?

"I am relieved that now you all know the truth about the sample recovered in the Sierras on November 10th 2010. I was giving false confidence in that sample just like the rest of you. "

"People in this circle have said things in private and done things behind closed doors that they will have to be held accountable for very soon."

Yes, like I told you, "articulation" is not his strength and your understandably reading too much into his statement.

Allow me to translate:

He's reiterating what he's said from day one, at least to me, "that "if" the tissue isn't what he thinks it was and he was made to believe it was (confirmation through testing) he wants everyone to know about it ASAP and move onto the boots."

The second part is directed towards Dr. Ketchum's actions behind closed doors and he anticipates getting it off his chest after over a year.

Justin is the *elephant in the room*. Very good points..Bart has tried to stand by him and justifiably so..but it's Justin that needs to be heard. I suggest , as I have before, listening to Justins account on video with RO Sahebi:

I "stand" by him because aside from the primary incident (that may never be substantiated) that anyone not with him cannot be certain of unfortunately, he's been upfront and truthful with me from day one where it can be quantified, and has shown more character (much of the time non-bigfoot related) then many people I've known for much longer, in addition to giving me 100% cooperation. That does not make the purported shooting event true, but that is a statement of fact from my perspective.

I've seen enough circumstantial evidence personally (not apparent externally) to make me believe he/they are likely telling me the truth, I've seen zero in the way of contradictory evidence. If tomorrow I possessed contradictory evidence, it would be an understatement to say I'd reconsider my position.

So you're not impressed with his interview with Ro and you're a skeptic regarding the whole bigfoot phenomenon (nothing wrong with that), that doesn't give you special insight.

FYI- if I would've only seen Motley Crue's Smokin In the Boys Room video, I doubt I would've been a fan of the band. Point being, instead of watching the video, maybe formulate a few questions on your mind and initiate contact with Justin and see if he takes the time to answer them, you may or may not have a different outlook. But you'll have more then an impression from a video.

Looking at and working with dna is her life’s work ontariosquatch.

If a good furniture maker told you the chunk of cherry tree you asked him to make a piece of furniture with spoke to him while he worked with the wood, would you think ill of the man?

Truthfully..."yes," yes I would. Not "ill" but like, "someone please help this man."

[Guest]

I "stand" by him because aside from the primary incident (that may never be substantiated) that anyone not with him cannot be certain of unfortunately, he's been upfront and truthful with me from day one where it can be quantified, and has shown more character (much of the time non-bigfoot related) then many people I've known for much longer, in addition to giving me 100% cooperation. That does not make the purported shooting event true, but that is a statement of fact from my perspective.

I've seen enough circumstantial evidence personally (not apparent externally) to make me believe he/they are likely telling me the truth, I've seen zero in the way of contradictory evidence. If tomorrow I possessed contradictory evidence, it would be an understatement to say I'd reconsider my position.

So you're not impressed with his interview with Ro and you're a skeptic regarding the whole bigfoot phenomenon (nothing wrong with that), that doesn't give you special insight.

FYI- if I would've only seen Motley Crue's Smokin In the Boys Room video, I doubt I would've been a fan of the band. Point being, instead of watching the video, maybe formulate a few questions on your mind and initiate contact with Justin and see if he takes the time to answer them, you may or may not have a different outlook. But you'll have more then an impression from a video.

Truthfully..."yes," yes I would. Not "ill" but like, "someone please help this man."

Bart...

I don't think you can compare a band's Video..which is a STAGED event with entertainment in mind..with a candid interview of someones account entailing ruthlessly KILLING two animals when..hypothetically...he has NO REASON to do so. This alone goes to my judgement of him. He appears arrogant in that he blatantly ignored his partner's warnings and advice to stand down. His account of the brutal hunting down of the child and treatment of it's body defies reason. Whether this all took place (or not) has no relavence for me...it's HIS ACCOUNT OF EVENTS that goes to his character. This is a person with *issues* that I don't understand. I respect you with no reservations...you are a tremendous asset to BF research in my book. The fact that I don't like or trust Smeja is simply something that I derived from *seeing a video*...a very CANDID video.

Repectfully..

Ron

Edited February 1, 2013 by ronn1

[Guest BartloJays]

Bart...

I don't think you can compare a band's Video..which is a STAGED event with entertainment in mind..with a candid interview of someones account entailing ruthlessly KILLING two animals when..hypothetically...he has NO REASON to do so. This alone goes to my judgement of him. He appears arrogant in that he blatantly ignored his partner's warnings and advice to stand down. His account of the brutal hunting down of the child and treatment of it's body defies reason. Whether this all took place (or not) has no relavence for me...it's HIS ACCOUNT OF EVENTS that goes to his character. This is a person with *issues* that I don't understand. I respect you with no reservations...you are a tremendous asset to BF research in my book. The fact that I don't like or trust Smeja is simply something that I derived from *seeing a video*...a very CANDID video.

Repectfully..

Ron

To be honest, you have every right to feel that way from your perspective and I appreciate the kind words and respect you as well.

[Guest njjohn]

As to the furniture maker analogy... "It spoke to me" is actually a common saying referring to something opening your eyes. Bart, I assume your first thermal image spoke to you in that sense that you had no more doubts about what was out there. If someone hasn't heard that saying used before, I could understand it setting off flags though.

I wasn't privy to the conversation between Justin and Melba, so I have no idea is that's what she meant, I'm just doing my standard reading between the lines to answer the unanswered in my mind. I'm looking forward to Justin releasing his statement.

As to the rest of it... anyone that's listened to or read every interview with Justin can tell he believes what happened happened. And i haven't seen anyone dispute that at the expense of evidence. When Melba comes out and says it's a human hybrid, if you're in support of proving BF instead of simply the truth, why would they ever go to independent labs with the same samples? If I were on the west coast, I'd want to go out in the field with them because I trust their method. Getting it right instead of getting attention.

[Guest Tyler H]

Bart...

I don't think you can compare a band's Video..which is a STAGED event with entertainment in mind..with a candid interview of someones account entailing ruthlessly KILLING two animals when..hypothetically...he has NO REASON to do so. This alone goes to my judgement of him. He appears arrogant in that he blatantly ignored his partner's warnings and advice to stand down. His account of the brutal hunting down of the child and treatment of it's body defies reason. Whether this all took place (or not) has no relavence for me...it's HIS ACCOUNT OF EVENTS that goes to his character. This is a person with *issues* that I don't understand. I respect you with no reservations...you are a tremendous asset to BF research in my book. The fact that I don't like or trust Smeja is simply something that I derived from *seeing a video*...a very CANDID video.

Repectfully..

Ron

My only point on this Ron, would be that to me, that particular aspect of his character plays no role in what this thread, and this whole undertaking is about - namely the reliability of his claims. I would say his transparency about his unsavory decisions are actually a testament to his honesty.

Melba is in the same boat to some extent - She could (hypothetically) be as cookoo as a clock, and as unsavory as you can imagine, but those traits alone would not make her claims unreliable.

I don't personally think any of the questions about Justin's character relate to honesty (If someone wanted to take issue with a "sanctity of life" type of argument, they might have grounds for a debate). I'm not sure that the same can be said regarding questions about the character of other key players on this stage.

As to the furniture maker analogy... "It spoke to me" is actually a common saying referring to something opening your eyes. Bart, I assume your first thermal image spoke to you in that sense that you had no more doubts about what was out there. If someone hasn't heard that saying used before, I could understand it setting off flags though.

I wasn't privy to the conversation between Justin and Melba, so I have no idea is that's what she meant, I'm just doing my standard reading between the lines to answer the unanswered in my mind. I'm looking forward to Justin releasing his statement.

As to the rest of it... anyone that's listened to or read every interview with Justin can tell he believes what happened happened. And i haven't seen anyone dispute that at the expense of evidence. When Melba comes out and says it's a human hybrid, if you're in support of proving BF instead of simply the truth, why would they ever go to independent labs with the same samples? If I were on the west coast, I'd want to go out in the field with them because I trust their method. Getting it right instead of getting attention.

I can agree that someone who carves marble, or treestumps, etc might say the raw piece "spoke to them." I don't want to delve further into what Justin has to say, but I will say that I think the context went a bit beyond that. Again, I don't think those sort of statements discredit Melba anyways. She's welcome to be a "dreamer" for lack of a better word.

Can you re-state/clarify this statement: "When Melba comes out and says it's a human hybrid, if you're in support of proving BF instead of simply the truth, why would they ever go to independent labs with the same samples? If I were on the west coast, I'd want to go out in the field with them because I trust their method. Getting it right instead of getting attention." ?

I feel there are several indistinct references in that paragraph. Why would WHO go to independednt labs? Melba? or Bart and I? Has it been proven yet that Melba has? Not disputing it, just saying that you are asserting it, and wondering what proof you have of that?

"Go out in the field with them because I trust their method" - again, is this referring to Melba? As far as I know, Melba doesn't really do field research - her samples all came from other people. When you say "methods" ... what methods are you referring to? I don't believe she has devulged her methods - that's part of the issue.

Sorry if I am mis-reading your statements.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sojourner

I'd like to give my own translations of Justin's statements as well:

"I am relieved that now you all know the truth about the sample recovered in the Sierras on November 10th 2010. I was giving false confidence in that sample just like the rest of you. "

Translation = "I am relieved that we all now have some solid evidence to suggest what species contributed the samples that I recoveres in the Sierras on November 10th, 2010. I had a false confidence in the samples being from an unknown primate. The false confidence I had in that sample was due to information provided to me from the original tester of those samples. I am sorry that my false confidence caused me to give many of you that same false confidence."

"People in this circle have said things in private and done things behind closed doors that they will have to be held accountable for very soon."

Translation = ... Well... I don't really want to translate this one... but I WILL say that the "people in this circle" reference did NOT refer to Bart or me.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Tyler H

[Guest njjohn]

Can you re-state/clarify this statement: "When Melba comes out and says it's a human hybrid, if you're in support of proving BF instead of simply the truth, why would they ever go to independent labs with the same samples? If I were on the west coast, I'd want to go out in the field with them because I trust their method. Getting it right instead of getting attention." ?

I feel there are several indistinct references in that paragraph. Why would WHO go to independednt labs? Melba? or Bart and I? Has it been proven yet that Melba has? Not disputing it, just saying that you are asserting it, and wondering what proof you have of that?

I meant that if just getting the scientific community to recognize BF (which Melba's paper "should" do) instead of getting the real truth, yourself, Bart and Justin could have just kept quiet and not rock the boat. Because you did go to independent labs, it showed a level of integrity that should be admired. Derek's comments in this thread are the first i've heard of Melba's team doing it.

"Go out in the field with them because I trust their method" - again, is this referring to Melba? As far as I know, Melba doesn't really do field research - her samples all came from other people. When you say "methods" ... what methods are you referring to? I don't believe she has devulged her methods - that's part of the issue.

Sorry if I am mis-reading your statements.

I meant yourself and Bart. And the methods of making sure to get all your ducks in a row before releasing anything. And no need to be sorry. I should hold back from posting at 3 a.m. and not making myself clear.

[Guest BartloJays]

LOL Njjohn,

I knew what you meant but had to read it a few times to get it. Maybe we'll get you out here to the westcoast sometime.

I'm heading to NorCal coast next week and counting the days as this is the longest stretch in years I've not been out due to weather, responsibilities etc...

[Guest Tyler H]

Thanks Nijohn

Likely doesn't help that I was readig at ... I think it was around 2AM here.

[southernyahoo]

"her samples all came from other people"...... This should not be stated as fact.

[Guest Tyler H]

"her samples all came from other people"...... This should not be stated as fact.

Well, to be fair, I didn't state it as fact - I said "As far as I know, Melba doesn't really do field research - her samples all came from other people."

I certainly don't have great insight on this one though.

SY, are you saying that some of the samples in her study were also discovered by her? Were they from the Sasquatch on her own property?

[southernyahoo]

Just advising Tyler, you are one whom has had conversations with her, and people will expect you to know what you speak about. This thread not being about Dr. Ketchum , should be kept free of your speculations about her. Dr. Ketchum has publicly said she has her own field evidence, and people have assumed that related only to a stick structure photo. You and Bart being buds with WH should know something about that.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

I think it's worth mentioning that the stick structure pictures and sightings were at some sort of habituation site not on her own property.

[Guest slimwitless]

Didn't she say on C2C she was present when a sample was collected?

[Guest Tyler H]

Just advising Tyler, you are one whom has had conversations with her, and people will expect you to know what you speak about. This thread not being about Dr. Ketchum , should be kept free of your speculations about her. Dr. Ketchum has publicly said she has her own field evidence, and people have assumed that related only to a stick structure photo. You and Bart being buds with WH should know something about that.

I'll just state for the record that I know very little about Melba's samples beyond Justin's, and bits of info here and there about Derek's and some others. Not sure why I had the impression that she had not 'harversted' her own samples, but good point - I'll just zip it on that front.

[Guest Tyler H]

SY, and Mods - I made a reply post to SY's last post, much earlier today, but I can't see it.

However, the main page that lists all the general discussion threads, does show that I was the last to post here.

It seems that I often have to make a post, in order to then be able to see the most recent posts. Any insights for me?

EDIT - yep, once again, it was only after I posted this that was was able to see the more recent posts.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Tyler H