Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest BartloJays]

Bart said Justin was hoping to have it done by end of the weekend but he's been busy. Hopefully it's in the next couple of days. I'm looking forward to Bart's DNA study report that he hoped to have out by end of weekend as well.

FYI njjohn, just wanted to give you a heads up that I'm hoping to have those DNA results (not a study) out before I leave as I'm waiting for some feedback clarifications from the director and another party. If I don't get that by tomorrow I won't be releasing it until I get back from the woods (going to be no time) sometime in the middle of the following week. Is what it is, but we never just throw something out with appropriate presentation. It's frustrating as I was told I'd have it before Xmas and the lab director couldn't pull it off (then left town for extended periods) because of the extra data I requested.

Edited February 4, 2013 by BartloJays

[Guest njjohn]

No rush from me, just said I'm looking forward to it. If you're busy, you're busy. You can fill us in on the trip experiences as well

[Guest BartloJays]

No rush from me, just said I'm looking forward to it. If you're busy, you're busy. You can fill us in on the trip experiences as well

Appreciate it njjohn!

Looking forward to it as were hitting NorCal coast as although you must contend with adverse and wet weather, those temperate rainforests have the resources right now and wind/rain protection so it kind of condenses the playing field with respect to what you'd rationalize would be priority. Also hitting general area of where Bobo and I were aggressively paralleled out of a wet, redwood/spruce trail at 2am and then Rgr Leiterman and I got our Knock and tree destruction video (BFROVIDEOS) exactly 2 months later (exactly two yrs ago).

I gotta good crew too and have been just chomping at the bit to take a brief break from writing and get back out. Looking forward to seeing Bo as well. I'll keep you updated.

[Guest]

I'm actually listening to it now and Justin just said that he will release his statement this week. He said he has been very busy with work and has not had time to do it.

It's been another week. Six weeks now.

Am I really expected to believe that he has been just utterly unable to fit in a few minutes? Really? No.

[Guest]

...but I just couldn’t disagree with you more

About what? Hearing more from the witness?

and frankly find your assumption that any of us would compromise “foremost pursuit of the truth,†for any reason (no reason is justifiable), a bit offensive considering the time and attention to detail we’ve all put in to get the facts and share them.

How many times do I have to say that I have no questions, doubts, challenges or objections to or about you, Tyler and/or Derek before you realize that my possible concerns thus far are only regarding your witness? How many times? I have tried several times to emphasize that none of my potential concerns, criticisms or questions here concern any of you three guys. I have stated that I understand and sympathize with your huge investments of time, attention, ability and money and recognize the personal relationships that have resulted. Therefore, i do understand why you might sometimes take a question as a personal challenge or affront, but believe me, again, my points are not with any of you guys, but only in my own consideration and examination of your witness.

"Frankly" and "my assumption"?! Frankly, I'm disappointed that I even have to say this. Here is that part of my quote that you are responding to: "and Melba is nothing but a distraction now in this matter prior to further clarifications from the witness... and any such gamesmanship is not a foremost pursuit of the truth... while the witness still remains silent." Now... did you happen to notice immediately before that "foremost pursuit of truth" part that seems to have so caught your personal attention that I said "further clarifications from the WITNESS" and then again, immediately after that part you were so concerned about, that I again added "while THE WITNESS still remains silent." And then, if you happen to look again at the beginning of that relevant quote, I also stated again "All three of you guys are top-notch fine researchers"... In other words, again- not you guys, the witness, the witness.

Neither this thread nor this “friction†you perceive (which in reality is exaggerated…but it’s understandable from an external standpoint)

That's why I said merely "friction" and not attacks, fighting, hatred or personal warfare. How could I minimize it any more or less without dismissing it entirely? While you might not like it, I don't think Tyler or Derek would have any objections to merely observing and noting just a little "friction."

...has anything to do with Justin in reality, as all three of us (for similar and fairly compelling personal reasons) believe Justin (and Jack) to different extents and all three of us have stuck our proverbial necks out in pursuit of the truth in every aspect of this Sierras saga.

Why do you think your and their necks are out? How are any of you accountable for Justin? You've got nothing but praise for openly reporting the facts. Who is opposed to the pursuit of the truth and how could it threaten your neck?

As far as Justin goes, I’ve said from day one (and preached caution) that it doesn’t matter what any of us “think,†if the circumstantial (tissue) and non-circumstantial (boots) physical evidence doesn’t substantiate what was claimed, the Sierras shooting event will remain forever anecdotal in nature indefinitely, with the exception being new evidence coming to light (either supportive or contradictory) or evidence is retrieved with undeniable association to the original event (difficult to obtain).

I'm not saying it is or isn't because I don't know, and I know you know this also, but in addition to your options of Justin True and Justin Anecdotal is also the possibility of Justin False.

None of us, including Justin, are under any other illusion of what the burden of “proof†is or where it lies. I’m sure you would agree with that, so from Justin’s position knowing that, what good does it do him taking the time to continually entertain every single question and insinuation in defense of himself when he’s done so (and continues to) for two yrs?

Now we have apparently substantial contradictory evidence to consider in addition to anecdote. Do we dismiss it? Do we disregard it? How do you reconcile your confidence in Justin's account with your lab results?

You’ve known me for quite a while now, you know firsthand I’m a very detailed person and facts and making appropriate distinctions with consideration of ALL facts is important to me….if they don’t then we have no business investigating anything. “Character,†matters to me and I know Derek and Tyler live by that as well through their actions over the years….not cheap talk. I would also contend that the majority of people here are appreciative for those details and facts and care about them. Sure there’s a few who take opportunistic cheapshots and only care about having their opinion heard (with no consideration of facts) but they are definitely the minority. If you think that any of us (myself, Derek or Tyler) would bury evidence or truthful information that may come to light tomorrow and would happen to conflict with our current “beliefs,†then you haven’t been paying attention and don’t know us good enough to pay us any complements in the first place. In addition, you would know something ourselves or even our own witness (Justin) in this case doesn’t if that were the case.

Man... enough of this strawman argumentation please. I never said any such thing and have said the exact opposite several times now, so can you drop that yet, as least as far as I am concerned? Fine, I don't know you well enough to compliment you. Fine. As you wish. I retract my compliments, as if that makes any difference whatsoever. Now, I still have no particular challenges regarding you, Tyler and Derek but i am still interested in hearing more from your witness. Am I not supposed to?

Furthermore, with respect to Justin, none of us have any objections with his participation here or anywhere else for that matter, the witness (Justin) has been nothing short of cooperative and compliant since day one and fully integrated himself into bigfoot community making pursuit a newfound passion. He’s also made himself more available then any witness I’ve ever been associated with (that’s a fact). I think that’s unfair to assume because he’s not here specifically in this thread answering questions recently takes away from the efforts he’s made elsewhere and previously here at the BFF for the last 2 yrs.

Everything else was before results challenging his account. We now have substance in addition to the anecdote. Does that substance contradicting the anecdote fairly demand further questioning and examination or does it not?

He just did a radio show the other day addressing almost everything that periodically sidetracked this thread. That doesn’t count?

Count for what? I haven't listened to it yet. Does anything he said there make any difference to anything here and now? If so, what and how?

If you were unaware or not up to date you should perform some due diligence before making assumptions. I know you well enough to know that you’re typically a very diligent person.

What assumptions have I made? Quote me. Or are you assuming about me? What "unaware" "up-to-date' "due diligence" am I missing that has any bearing on anything of the little that I have said here since your release of your results regarding Justin's claimed evidence? How is seeking additional information so troubling?

On a side note, unrelated to your suggestion Sojourner, one thing I find especially irritating, and I’d bet both Tyler and Derek agree here, is when you’re relaying “facts†of any sort or even beliefs (not definitively stated as facts) from your investigations, the assumption is you’ve taken a position and are being defensive. Again, if you’ve paid attention, though it appears ironic, we’ve defended Dr. Ketchum if we are certain or know for a fact, untruths are being initiated against her.

I am disgusted with the entire Erickson/Ketchum/et al soap opera and think it was a horrible mistake for multiple separate alleged incidents and evidences to all be tied together unnecessarily when each and every example should have and could have stood or fallen on its own and then, and only then, could they have been related, compared and contrasted as the case may be.

It’s very simple, with respect to me as a person and a researcher, if I tell you something is a definitive “fact†(in other words, vouching as a statement of fact) then you can take it to the bank and I expect you to hold me to it. If something is a ‘belief,†(potentially subjective) I’m basing that belief on experience, available information etc… I could be wrong because I’m imperfect and human. By sharing facts and “details†which “may†lead to facts, does not mean anybody is trying to convince you of anything other than to consider facts before developing an opinion (for most people unfortunately their opinion is usually stated as a fact prematurely without consideration or digestion of pertinent information…usually provided for them).

Why even say all this about yourself yet again? Can you tell us with absolute factual certainly that Justin's account is entirely true? Of course not. With all due respect, YOU are not the point. JUSTIN IS THE POINT. I have NO concern but for the facts and truth of the matter, and every question offered regarding this entire episode is not a challenging personal attack against you, Tyler and Derek to be resisted and opposed.

One example is that I’ve never stated for a fact that the event happened as both Justin and Jack have claimed because I wasn’t standing with them that day. Because of multiple reasons (several from personal perspective) like eavesdropping on their conversation, intimately getting to know them and their families, Justin passing a poly 100% and getting what I (and witnesses with me) know is real thermal footage 300 yds from where he shot them, I “believe†the incident happened and I would contend have reasonable and justifiable reasons for believing so. But I would never state it as a fact to push my belief on others, because there’s crazier coincidences in life and not seeing the original incident with my own eyes…I could be wrong.

Everybody here prioritizes the truth and will stop at nothing to get it....period

He always seemed legit to me too. The polygraph was encouraging. But we've got a legitimate issue now with the results. We know you believe Justin and find him only and entirely credible. We all know that. Other thermal footage, even if 100% genuine sasquatch grade A choice, from another time has no bearing on the validity of Justin's claims.

At this point, what is your explanation for the test results?

Do you believe that Justin may have accidentally somehow just happened to find a stray piece of bear flesh remaining in the exact same spot? http://bigfootforums...900#entry682631

Do any of you guys have any objections to Justin participating here openly?

To answer your question more directly though - I have no objections, and I know Bart has told me he would love for Justin to speak freely about the things he has told us. So, there's your answer for two out of us three that you directed the question to. I'm stretching enough to 'answer for Bart', I sure won't answer for Derek.

Furthermore, with respect to Justin, none of us have any objections with his participation here or anywhere else for that matter,

Derek?

Edited February 5, 2013 by Sojourner

[Guest]

Wow!! Lot of catch up here! I've been in the woods collecting cameras. I think what you're asking me is how do I feel about Justin talking freely? I'm cool with it. I'm not his handler and neither is Bart or Tyler. I'll be 100% honest here and say that I hope he doesn't come out and throw Melba under the bus, because her data will hopefully help substantiate his claims. That being said, He is his own man, and he's free to do whatever he wants. I did ask him a few days ago what he was going to say when and if he says anything, and his reply to me is: " I'm going to tell the truth" ...exact words. He will say that he knows he didn't shoot a couple bears up there, and he feels very strongly that the flesh he submitted came from what he shot at. He told me on the phone that he can't understand why a " top wildlife lab " from Canada needed six months to come up with a bear ID when that should have been able to be performed in a week or less..and I can tell you I have the same concerns.

Justin's posted here many times before, and I'm sure when he feels like he needs to say something he'll post here again. I can also assure you that none of us are trying in the least to control him in any way.

DR

[Guest BartloJays]

"Frankly" and "my assumption"?! Frankly, I'm disappointed that I even have to say this. Here is that part of my quote that you are responding to: "and Melba is nothing but a distraction now in this matter prior to further clarifications from the witness... and any such gamesmanship is not a foremost pursuit of the truth... while the witness still remains silent." Now... did you happen to notice immediately before that "foremost pursuit of truth" part that seems to have so caught your personal attention that I said "further clarifications from the WITNESS" and then again, immediately after that part you were so concerned about, that I again added "while THE WITNESS still remains silent." And then, if you happen to look again at the beginning of that relevant quote, I also stated again "All three of you guys are top-notch fine researchers"... In other words, again- not you guys, the witness, the witness.

That's just it, the "witness" has not remained silent, he's snuck in recent interviews and been in conversation threads on FB with dozens of persons on bigfoot group/org pages, He just hasn't been responding on here as the thread was Tyler and I taking the time to field questions that people understandably have regarding the testing, deviations with Dr. Ketchum's "claimed" results etc..

Why do you think your and their necks are out? How are any of you accountable for Justin? You've got nothing but praise for openly reporting the facts. Who is opposed to the pursuit of the truth and how could it threaten your neck?

By "perception," just as we're all guilty by association of bigfoot subject and tied in with every loon that gets exposure. Many persons, a handful in this thread, don't make distinctions who's who, who's done what, who's made promises, who's cautioned them, who's said what and who's been saying what from day one. Some persons intentionally muddy the waters of truth and or accuracy with respect to "the players." It's very frustrating, but it's a reality and that will not change

I'm not saying it is or isn't because I don't know, and I know you know this also, but in addition to your options of Justin True and Justin Anecdotal is also the possibility of Justin False.

You're preaching to the choir, that will always be a possibility to Tyler and myself (although we personally don't believe that's the case form an internal standpoint, at least at this time) because again, neither of us were standing with both guys that day when the "purported" shooting happened and I don't think anyone should support something or speak of it "as a fact" absent substantiating physical evidence or seeing it with their own eyes.

Now we have apparently substantial contradictory evidence to consider in addition to anecdote. Do we dismiss it? Do we disregard it? How do you reconcile your confidence in Justin's account with your lab results?

No we don't (it's only "contradictory evidence by perception), we've been over this multiple times that it's not "contradictory evidence." It's circumstantial evidence." Circumstantial evidence that I've been warning people about since my involvement, because of time, state of recognition, concerns about the person testing it, and "immediate" area as opposed to general area of claimed retrieval. Also, circumstantial evidence that the witness/submitters believed was associated with the large subject shot, but were not certain and never claimed otherwise. Had they made the claim of taking the tissue from the body at any point, and testing showed bear with human contamination, that would absolutely be considered contradictory evidence.

]Man... enough of this strawman argumentation please. I never said any such thing and have said the exact opposite several times now, so can you drop that yet, as least as far as I am concerned? Fine, I don't know you well enough to compliment you. Fine. As you wish. I retract my compliments, as if that makes any difference whatsoever. Now, I still have no particular challenges regarding you, Tyler and Derek but i am still interested in hearing more from your witness. Am I not supposed to?

Of course, however, the witness has been open and sharing, even taking personal phone calls from interested parties for two yrs. That's not changing, but he's hit a busy spot in his life and he's gotta take care of number one right now, which is his family.

Count for what? I haven't listened to it yet. Does anything he said there make any difference to anything here and now? If so, what and how?

Yes, he does touch on some of it and I'd suggest listening to it first and it may answer "some" of your questions.

How is seeking additional information so troubling?

It's not, demanding it with an entitlement attitude is as well as jumping to alternative conclusions if the response isn't timely enough for you ....imo.

Everything else was before results challenging his account. We now have substance in addition to the anecdote. Does that substance contradicting the anecdote fairly demand further questioning and examination or does it not?

Why even say all this about yourself yet again? Can you tell us with absolute factual certainly that Justin's account is entirely true? Of course not. With all due respect, YOU are not the point. JUSTIN IS THE POINT. I have NO concern but for the facts and truth of the matter, and every question offered regarding this entire episode is not a challenging personal attack against you, Tyler and Derek to be resisted and opposed.

He always seemed legit to me too. The polygraph was encouraging. But we've got a legitimate issue now with the results. We know you believe Justin and find him only and entirely credible. We all know that. Other thermal footage, even if 100% genuine sasquatch grade A choice, from another time has no bearing on the validity of Justin's claims.

At this point, what is your explanation for the test results?

Do you believe that Justin may have accidentally somehow just happened to find a stray piece of bear flesh remaining in the exact same spot? http://bigfootforums...900#entry682631

I've answered that multiple times throughout this thread (very thoroughly) and am not going to take the time to do it again. You probably don't even have to go 15 pages back to get all that.

Again, it doesn't matter what Tyler and myself "thinks" because there's always a possibility of us being wrong not knowing something as absolute fact. Neither of us are trying to convince you or anybody of anything, we're just attempting to prevent misinformation (like claims of "contradictory evidence") from being spread and have made the case of why we feel the way we do. Of course we have great reasons for believing the way we do, much of it, not even in Justin's control (thermal footage for example) in convincing us. I suggest you not take my word for that and follow my comments, interviews and statements (which are on record) over the course of the last 15 months. Again, the results of the testing may've been a major revelation to you, but they weren't to us (we thought it had a chance but certainly weren't banking on it). To me, based on the circumstances I've provided multiple times and then the suspicion which created the sense of urgency in testing, I would've been pleasantly surprised at alternative results. It's unfortunate, but the reason yourself and others were believing the tissue was the pivotal piece in determining the validity of the event is because you were told by some (particularly Dr. Ketchum) that it was a done deal, heightening expectations.

Edited February 5, 2013 by kbhunter

[Guest njjohn]

And then people wonder why we care if Dyer attempts another hoax. A lot in the community lump everyone together by association. He posted on your blog, you were mentioned there so you must be connected. What did you know and when did you know it!

@ sojourner - Most of the questions you've asked have been answered in interviews that Justin has given recently. The only part that isn't public knowledge is the behind the scenes stuff with Melba and I understand the desire to want to word it properly.

The report is dragging out, but you can't break it apart into individual pieces or it's not a study. It's supposed to change the game, not just convince one or two people to take a deeper look.

We all want the info, because we're curious and want to know everything. There's nothing wrong with that. But we don't have to get upset when it's not done at our timescale. It'll come.

[Guest BartloJays]

God multiple quotes really suck, I think I just gave myself carpal tunnel copying and pasting

[Guest njjohn]

lol i know the feeling. Some of these important threads could almost be broken down into a frequently asked questions post, locked and pinned.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

and he feels very strongly that the flesh he submitted came from what he shot at.

Hmmm this should be interesting. Just several weeks ago he was saying the opposite. That he had false confidence in the sample that was recovered.

[Guest]

Ontario,

That's what he told me a few days ago. Send him a message on face book and ask him yourself. He's a pretty open guy. Bart and Tylers reports have obviously placed doubt in his mind, but he still believes what he believes. Reach out to him and ask him. I don't want to speak for him, just simply relating what he told me.

DR

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

I believe you Derek. I just find it odd that Justin has been bouncing back and forth with his belief about the submitted sample. Maybe he finally made up his mind

[Guest BartloJays]

Derek is absolutely correct in that Justin has said he'll never be fully convinced that there's no direct association with the sample (he believed the sample was from the same source, but not certain and that's never changed), hence he was much more on pins and needles and had hope then probably Tyler and myself with testing updates. The quote of "false confidence" is a reference to being made to believe through Dr. Ketchum that it was an absolute fact that tissue was from a bigfoot and to just be patient.

Edited February 5, 2013 by BartloJays

[Guest BartloJays]

Whoops, in post #1195 I erroneously answered the wrong quote from Sojourner. Meant to answer this below

I am disgusted with the entire Erickson/Ketchum/et al soap opera and think it was a horrible mistake for multiple separate alleged incidents and evidences to all be tied together unnecessarily when each and every example should have and could have stood or fallen on its own and then, and only then, could they have been related, compared and contrasted as the case may be.

with this:

Agree with you all the way there, but there's was nothing we could do about that other then what we did