Bigfoot Research--Still No Evidence (Continued)

[Guest DWA]

vvv And how's that working so far?  Proof available on request?

 

Weekends are getting nothing.  Long-term field work has gotten something, totally consistent with history.

 

 

Three expeditions in a half-century - the only three ever, in fact

 

 

What's an expedition again? I don't think it takes 3 weeks or even one to encounter evidence of them. If you know where they are and what to look for you can have it the first night. Ask Bipto when he gets back

 

Edited June 13, 2013 by DWA

[Guest Stan Norton]

 

 

G.Blacki fossils were found in Asia, there is nothing to indicate it was ever in North America.

 Yes, but that only means that fossil remains of that species have been found in Asia - i.e. the fossil record in itself is not an exhaustive catalogue of a species distribution. Remember, Asia and North America have been contiguous for much of 'recent' geological time, and there is unambiguous evidence for 'Asian' species occurring in NA...

 

http://news.softpedia.com/news/New-Red-Panda-Discovered-in-North-America-36383.shtml

 

 

You understand the immense distances between southern China, and the Bering Strait?

 

7000 miles from Guangzhou China, and the Bering Strait. (conservatively)

 

Maybe not impossible for a biped made for long distance walking, but definitely a chore for a creature who was probably a tree dwelling, bamboo eating, semi quadruped, with ape feet.

 

http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/gigantopithecus--_the_jury-rig.html

 

Yes, I understand very well. I also understand that such distances are irrelevant over the course of tens or hundreds of thousands of years. Add natural selection into the mix and anything is possible. The spread of our own species and its various predecessors is an excellent case in point, managing to span much of the globe over recent geological time. 

 

 

this is a common misconception. Australians did not leave africa and walk to australia in one life time. It took many many generations to cover that distance.

 

 

Nor did I imply that they walked it all at once.

The idea of a population spreading 7000 miles, and it is not shown that it could even handle the climate of northern Asia, is silly.

 

There is no fossil evidence of a Giganto like creature anywhere north of China.  Let alone the additional 4000 miles from china to Siberia.

 

By your logic, Mountain Gorillas should have spread to Norway.

 

No. Norway is, biogeographically, very different from equatorial Africa. Clearly there are myriad factors influencing species distribution other than climate.

[Guest DWA]

So how about giant pandas making the trek to Spain, or lesser pandas to Tennessee?  Kinda unlikely there too.

 

But it happened.

 

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/sp-giant-panda/

 

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/new-red-panda/

 

Long time we're talking about here.  It's not a walk to the mailbox.

[southernyahoo]

 

vvv And how's that working so far?  Proof available on request?

 

Weekends are getting nothing.  Long-term field work has gotten something, totally consistent with history.

 

 

Three expeditions in a half-century - the only three ever, in fact

 

 

What's an expedition again? I don't think it takes 3 weeks or even one to encounter evidence of them. If you know where they are and what to look for you can have it the first night. Ask Bipto when he gets back

 

 

 

Works as good as weeks in the field, has Nawac shown you anything that the weekenders haven't in terms of evidence or proof?

[Guest DWA]

Proof?  No.

 

Evidence?

 

OHYEAH.  Unless we're just saying they're all liars, which from my overall read of the evidence I'm kinda doubting.

[southernyahoo]

Proof?  No.

 

Evidence?

 

OHYEAH.  Unless we're just saying they're all liars, which from my overall read of the evidence I'm kinda doubting.

 

What evidence was that?

[Guest DWA]

Those five hands that bipto cut off and photographed.  Remember those?

 

They're seeing them; they're hearing them; they're reporting things that are in consonance with my read of the evidence - a lot of evidence - and pretty much what we'd expect for the kind of animals they likely are (apes).

 

Unless, you know, you're telling me they're liars.

[Guest Stan Norton]

 

 

this is a common misconception. Australians did not leave africa and walk to australia in one life time. It took many many generations to cover that distance.

 

 

Nor did I imply that they walked it all at once.

The idea of a population spreading 7000 miles, and it is not shown that it could even handle the climate of northern Asia, is silly.

 

There is no fossil evidence of a Giganto like creature anywhere north of China.  Let alone the additional 4000 miles from china to Siberia.

 

By your logic, Mountain Gorillas should have spread to Norway.

 

Again, the fossil record simply tells us, very usefully, that a particular organism was situated in a given locale once - it tells us 'known knowns'. One of the fascinating things about the natural world is that we are constantly being surprised, even astonished, by new revelations. There is this unfortunate assumption that we have everything nailed, and this is simply untrue, even for some of the most common and widespread and familiar species. As I'm certain Saskeptic will be able to tell us, even in a well-watched continent such as NA there are huge gaps in our knowledge of such well-observed groups as birds (perhaps the most well-watched group of all). 

[southernyahoo]

 

Those five hands that bipto cut off and photographed.  Remember those?

 

They're seeing them; they're hearing them; they're reporting things that are in consonance with my read of the evidence - a lot of evidence - and pretty much what we'd expect for the kind of animals they likely are (apes).

 

Unless, you know, you're telling me they're liars.

 

 

I've heard nothing of that. Where is the evidence for review?

[WSA]

On this topic I also find inspiration in my favorite polymath's weekly blog. As John Michael Greer points out,  those who insist loudly and often that history has nothing to teach us about the future will articulate this more concisely as: It is different this time.

 

This time, the unexplained is merely a pack of lies and the hyperbolic ravings of unstable psyches.

 

This time, the universe won't blindside us with unimagined possibities of things stranger than we could predict.

 

This time, we'll intuitively know exactly what the truth is, without bothering to probe too hard. 

 

This time, the rigor of disciplined and concerted inquiry will be fruitless.

 

This time...   

 

Sure, you can find the exceptions in history where there truly was a "this time." How often? Not very.

[Guest DWA]

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

This actually is science, running the way it's been running forever.  The time we're taking to prove bigfoot isn't out of line at all.

 

This ain't a "this time."

 

 

Those five hands that bipto cut off and photographed.  Remember those?

 

They're seeing them; they're hearing them; they're reporting things that are in consonance with my read of the evidence - a lot of evidence - and pretty much what we'd expect for the kind of animals they likely are (apes).

 

Unless, you know, you're telling me they're liars.

 

 

I've heard nothing of that. Where is the evidence for review?

 

Operation Persistence thread.  I will trust you knew that the hands part was pulling your chain.

 

Any negative comments would have to come with an explanation why I should mistrust what they're saying, given no good reason (unless of course there is one).

[Cotter]

 

 

So how about giant pandas making the trek to Spain, or lesser pandas to Tennessee?  Kinda unlikely there too.

 

But it happened.

 

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/sp-giant-panda/

 

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/new-red-panda/

 

Long time we're talking about here.  It's not a walk to the mailbox.

 

I didn't want this question to disappear as I anxiously await an explanation.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Cotter

[Guest]

As I'm certain Saskeptic will be able to tell us, even in a well-watched continent such as NA there are huge gaps in our knowledge of such well-observed groups as birds (perhaps the most well-watched group of all). 

Indeed, and the fossil record of birds is more fragmentary than that of large mammals because so many birds are very small and all of them lack the one thing that fossilizes more easily than anything else:  teeth.

 

Gigantopithecus spp in North America?  I've written voluminously about this here in the past, so I'll be brief.

 

Yes, of course - the fossil record is incomplete and we've often been surprised by finds that necessitated a revision of paleogeography.  True, primates can disperse long distances over thousands of generations, and it is possible to invent a "just so" story that could place Giganto in Beringia, and subsequently to every corner of North America.  But for such a thing to occur without a fossilized trace?  I ain't buying it, and here's why.

 

Folks like to look at the sum total of Giganto fossils that "fit in one suitcase" and conclude that the fossil record for the beast is embarrassingly scanty.  I'd call the well over 1000 fossils actually quite a rich record.  There are no complete skeletons which is frustrating, but clearly lots of individuals represented in that record.  Also that record doesn't include all the other teeth and bones found through antiquity in China that were ground up and dispensed in those Chinese apothecaries.  This tells me that where Gigantos die, there's a pretty decent chance that some teeth at least are going to be preserved in the local sediments.

 

We have an exciting and rich fossil history of animals that dispersed through Beringia.  I don't know if we have any large mammals with us now that dispersed through Beringia but are not recorded in the fossil record from the region.  We certainly have examples of species in that fossil record that aren't with us today.  The absence of Giganto fossils in that record can't tell us for sure that they weren't there, but it sure as heck doesn't help the case that they were.

 

Habitat doesn't help the case for Giganto either.  From what we know of existing fossil localities that can be used to reconstruct a distribution, Giganto occurred rather widely in forests of Southeast Asia (China and Vietnam) as well as in India.  To disperse to the New World through Beringia, these forest primates would have had to develop the ability to make use of very different habitat conditions than what we think they used based on analysis of the fossils we have.  It's a long way to Siberia from Vietnam, but more important there's open steppe, cold temperate forest, taiga (coniferous forest), and ultimately tundra in the way.  Those latter two would've been even a lot more extensive in the Pleistocene than they are today.  The distance isn't really the issue.  The crux for species that dispersed across Beringia was their ability to make use of the vast regions of tundra and taiga as they made their way through the region.  We can pretend that Giganto could have done this, but we simply lack any evidence that they did.

[Cotter]

Interesting Sask, and thank you.

I apologize for my lack of knowledge of felines, but how closely related are Siberian Tigers to their jungle counterparts?

 

If the migration took thousands of years, perhaps adaptations, like the tiger took place (assuming they are closely related).

 

But I agree, we don't have fossil records indicating anything like giganto made it through that area........yet (caveat).

Edit:

 

I used tigers b/c of their shared habitat in the forests of Asia and India.

And perhaps an omnivorous 'ape' would have much more to eat along the way.

 

[Guest DWA]

All well and good except I'm not going for "we're just going to toss all this evidence that scientists whose specialties could not be more directly relevant firmly vouch for because fossils the mathematical laws of chance tell us are nonexistent don't exist, oh, sorry, haven't been found...yet."