The Existance Of Bigfoot: Is The Magical/paranormal/spiritual/supernatural Really Necessary?

[Guest]

Yes! Ha, insightful stuff and I agree. And that is part of what I want to test....and wonder how...the coconut telegraph thing... I do wonder what they think of us! I used the term spying liberally in my posts on the Habituating thread... they know it, I know it...it is terrible..on the other hand..they spy too... it's pretty funny in some ways I guess really.

And yes to the goodnight's sleep, I find your comment genuine and from experience!

I had a trailcam (Reconyx 60) for a few months a few years back and sold it...clearly it wasn't working...

I have an old clunky thermal imager...but pretty clunky...so mostly it's going to just be eyes and ears I guess....

Edited April 22, 2013 by apehuman

[LeafTalker]

Leftfoot, you seem frustrated. I think a lot of people here feel something similar on a frequent basis. I wish there were something we could do to relieve that frustration, but I don't think there is. All each of us can do is honor our own experiences and our own understandings of those experiences. It's best not to rely too much on other people to support our take on things, because nobody else's experiences will ever mirror our own closely enough to provide us with the guarantees we might like that we're "right", or on the Right Track. In the end, we have to decide for ourselves whether something seems right to us.

You are the best and highest authority in your own life. If nothing that the "woo woo" people here are saying makes sense to you, that's absolutely fine, and you should respect your own feelings. And the only reason I suspect that you do not respect your own feelings is that you seem discomfited that not everybody shares them. That implies you want that reinforcement, those guarantees that all the rest of us want, too! but can't really ever have, until we accept that we, and nobody else, are the Boss of Us.

I say this to you, but it really goes for all of us here, no matter how we answer the question posed by the OP (is the paranormal really necessary) -- (edited to say: oh, that was you!). And I can get just as passionate as anybody else, trying to get someone to see my "side" of things, and that is not usually a very good thing..... So I speak as someone who genuinely shares your frustration, and struggles herself to remember, wait, it's okay; I can think this (whatever it is); I can be different from someone else, and still be okay.

You are okay. We think so! We hope you think so, too.

Edited April 22, 2013 by LeafTalker

[ThePhaige]

Thats and interesting vid AH, as are the guys comments. Thanks for the post. Yes life changing is a good analogy..

[Guest]

Leftfoot, you seem frustrated.

Consider this. If Dr Dean Radin (or anyone else for that mater) discovered the paranormal and could provide indisputable evidence of it he would easily have a Nobel prize or two. Where is/are his Nobel prize(s)? Yeah, don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question and I'm sure someone will come along soon with their trite sounding "Not everyone wants recognition" or some other similar drivel...

One might think I've heard these arguments before

I say this to you, but it really goes for all of us here, no matter how we answer the question posed by the OP (is the paranormal really necessary) -- (edited to say: oh, that was you!).

The original question is whether or not the paranormal is necessary for the existence of Bigfoot. So far my conclusion is a firm 'no', that existence of Bigfoot and the paranormal are two separate things.

I would, of course be willing to reassess that conclusion if provided evidence otherwise.

This discussion about whether or not the paranormal, by itself, exists is interesting but the promoters of it seem to be missing the key question.

Is the paranormal nessessary for the existence of Bigfoot? A poster or two seems to think that the paranormal is an intrinsic aspect of the Bigfoot, but some of the claims (such as strange lights and odd men) might be the result of confirming the consequent and a half dozen other fallacies besides.

Another provides a sensationalist story full of crazy sounding details and tries to give it credulence because Stephen Hawking is mentioned in the story. Oh my gosh! Stephen Hawking is alleged to be linked to this story! It must be true! It's on the Internet and it links one of the foremost minds of the modern world! It couldn't possibly be made up!

...

I'm sorry is this the part where I'm supposed to suspend disbelief and become a true believer in crazy sounding, unsubstainated stories of the paranormal Bigfoot?

Edited April 22, 2013 by Leftfoot

[Guest]

Leftfoot, you seem frustrated.

I'm sorry is this the part where I'm supposed to suspend disbelief and become a true believer in crazy sounding, unsubstainated stories of the paranormal Bigfoot?

Hahah I'll jump in here and say, Yes, suspend disbelief But, stop there and don't become a 'beleever' of any unsubstantiated story about bigfoots.

You can decide what is unsubstantiated. If you are adhering to scientific method exclusively, and the evidence of others...then Dr. Meldrum's work wraps it up , pretty much as of today....right? Maybe a bit more, we can push out to the hair work, and some videos, Bart's thermal analysis is well done and involved many to review - that is a good example of applied method in analysis even if it will convince no one who doesn't already think BFs exist... The DNA work unconclusive at best.

But how about witnesses? Are only some witness stories valid? If so why? Depends on the witness and your goals...what counts as valid I suppose....and we don't have any scientific method for claims of telepathy, to test...so one can write down what the witness says and leave it there, but note it now. Maybe one day we will have a way to test those ideas. Preserve the truth though..right?

I am unable to decide who or what type of witness is valid in advance of that person's statement, or after (sans hoaxing, or misidentification) until we actually know who/what BFs are, especially when they produce circumstantial evidence similar to many (as well as my own). How do we discover truth if we discard all witness of telepathy as invalid before it is compiled and analyzed? It's a numbers/statistics game of witness reports in some ways without personal experience of those wilder claims (or of Bfs at all!). ...and the paranormal looms fairly large back as far as people have been trying to figure BFs out...hummmm.

The problem with telepathy/paranormal is it occurs in the witnesses mind. Hard to put any weight in the content, but acknowledging they feel there is communication isn't too big a leap. On the inter-dimensional...it seems a much bigger leap and more easily explained as witness inaccuracy....until a credible witness insists. What then? Could it be BFs use telepathy to give the impression they disappeared? Or are all of these witnesses nuts? All BF witnesses? It is a tough problem, for me sincerity and the witnesses willingness to self question goes a long way to credibility...as do some of the longer standing mythology...now.... but I must admit they did not before this past year and those experiences at the site...or before witnessing UFOs in daylight...a lot of my perspective has changed b/c of my personal witness....things aren't so cut and dried as they used to be...

We don't have proof for the most mundane claims either. So suspending belief seems prudent to me.

The problem with discarding these ideas before tested (or reported!) is obvious I think, and if framed in the investigative method, rather than conclusions..it might be more palatable.

Edited April 22, 2013 by apehuman

[Guest]

I will tell you the reason I am on this forum, and it is not to seek proof..nor is it to prove anything to you.

Sounds like you're here to share your stories to me. I would like to hear them.

Go for it, i will not share the finer details of my very personal experiences except with those I trust. Whatever you dig up here Im fine with you dragging all you wish.

Are you certain about this? If you go provide the experiences you get the choice of providing what you feel supports you the finest.

You have 300+ posts, the most of which seem to be in two threads. If I have to go around and do your work for you, you don't get to complain when I provide your weaker posts.

Certainly, there is no proof one way or the other, only opinions at this point

*Groans*

Challenge accepted. Dancing Plague. Challenge met.

Interesting factoid, but I don't see its relevance here though

It's evidence of a mass schizophrenic event. I'm not sure why you wanted to know about them because I'm not sure what we have here are any mass schizophrenic events, but there you have it. it's certainly possible.

[Guest]

Can we take any witness of telepathy and apply it to Bart's thermal?

Justin was there asleep at the fire. Bart and Shawn walking with the thermal...

Why do three large adult BFs remain intent on the campers at the fire pay no heed to Bart and Shawn who is just 100 yards upslope in the dark holding a thermal imager?

Is it they have no idea what Bart is thinking and know humans would have difficulty either traversing at night w/o light to their position and so don't even bother to really observe...did they know if he had a weapon or would not fire toward camp ? Were there other BFs somehow covering Bart he was unaware of? Why more interest in the fire and campers than two isolated members? Justin? Are they aware he killed a child of theirs, is one of them the one he shot, now recovered??

Is any of it true? Was it actually the three campers at the fire hoaxing Bart...? Bart doesn't think so. The analysis supports his view... And if one accepts speech among BFs and transmitted knowledge btw clan/family...or these witnessed the shooting...?

Or not...completely unrelated BFs...and only curious engaged with the fire and possible food? Why throw a rock?

It's pretty odd...and does not seem to follow what I would expect...although I can create a good speculation that falls within natural known behaviors and inculdes nothing paranormal...if I can speculate wildly about what BFs think!

Edited April 22, 2013 by apehuman

[southernyahoo]

MIB

Oh, I think finally I just am doing this for me...(in contrast for BFs...ha...or humans..) but I have never faked anything with respect to reporting to humans...... I think you mean fake with the BFs to try and trick them, or to act in a manner not in keeping with my values?

If that is the case, yeah - that goes without saying ...

But, if they will tolerate the thermal great..or an openly held video...I'll have them handy...but the covert stuff isn't worth my time anymore...b/c the quality is not sufficient ...but it did inform me...(well I do have one dear little blind box with a one way mirror I must try...but not too hopeful ....)

I do think sound recording will be happening though..and probably openly..not sure yet...

so yeah lots to think about really...I also plan on several unrelated spots...... The summer won't be endless so...we'll see!

For me know the goal is a good daytime witness, and some direct communication.... otherwise I don't know what I am doing anymore....not so bent on trying to pull together evidence per se...but more understanding for me...and if I come up completely bust..oh well...! I don't feel like I will though... I do think they come round much more often than campers realize...and just staying alert and due diligence in the area will reveal a presence... maybe not, maybe I was spoiled by this one BF family....

I recently volunteered to be camp spy for my group when the rest left (after dark) to try different spots and various methods. The idea was fostered by repeated types of activity like the sounds of foot steps in camp picked up by recorders or heard live. It seems just when camp goes silent and there is no one moving around, the night critters get busy. I was positioned inside a one man tent sitting up in a chair, with audio recorder running coupled to a paprabolic dish, had one spotlight, and a camcorder filming through Gen2 nightvision monocular. I did have a few hair raising encounters, one with a couple armadillos, which could care less how much noise they make, one with a possum darting around like something was after him, then one visitor whom remained unidentified but one that could knock on wood like it was carrying a knocking stick. This all happend about an hour before actually going to bed in my own tent. I slept with my red camp light on that night, just so I could see and find my pistol next to the bed if I needed.

[Guest]

Can we take any witness of telepathy and apply it to Bart's thermal?

That depends. Are the evidence for the two in any way equal?

[Guest]

I meant for speculation... I had a big edit on that but time expired with a phone call..

I don't think they make any claim like that, but then is the human knowing it's occurring required? It was more of a speculation to that thermal and reported behaviors..... but speculation pretty much all around IMO...except to say...this is what is seen...

Edited April 22, 2013 by apehuman

[Guest]

Oh, sorry again another call..more directly..no, they aren't comparable at all...b/c the thermal exists as a kind of extrinsic evidence...no doubt. And were it not for the repeated mention by witnesses of the paranormal as a possible explanation, and now some personal weird experience, I would not consider it. Do you trust a loved one who claims a visit by passed family? It's at that level really, I get that. Would I take that family witness to the Anthro department ...well, these days maybe, to a social anthropology department...anyway... I don't think anyone would try and take a telepathic claim and make a successful sell of it to a physical anthropologist on BFs, i.e. Meldrum, or a geneticist like Sykes............maybe, or to an unbelieving cultural one (unless you are Native American sharing mythology? Or they are studying BFers!) I get that too. But, it's not like anyone is listening anyway, really....the din of amateurs to real science is kind of overwhelming. isn't it?

Right now I am in either a paranthopus descendant or erectus descendant type camp...lean toward genus homo.

But, that does leave open for me questions of telepathy generally and it seems that, as an existing phenomena in humans it is still an open question.

It makes a jump to inter dimensional tough though...and what personal experience I have there nill...but I oddly also believe in some kind of unseen God/world that arises from my religious experiences and education....and if I deny any possibility of spirit/inter dimensional then I deny that faith too...(in that it is possible, although still maybe not BFs...let the data speak...don't censor or anticipate...) ....hummm...so which is likely or not? Atheism seems to be my only out then...if I am not to even consider the possibilities of these recurring witness reports (and now my own) even if mixed up with other causes....or, even aliens, by extension/vocabulary....

Will I get a scientists attention or persuade my neighbors with that? No more or less than I have succeeded with a giant ape running around! And maybe it is the failure of what are considered conventional methods to solve this that keeps this question open and now, for me anyway, worth investigating and considering more fully (guilty of ignoring for a long time).

SY, nice post, thanks. Have you tried that vigil w/o the NV equipment since?

Edited April 22, 2013 by apehuman

[Guest]

I rarely watch youtubes now, unless viral...but this I did b/c of thumbnail on BFE..and what strikes me, is the natural camo..assuming real. My very brief daytime witnesses left me feeling had not the BF been in motion I would have assumed a tree. Is this real? Is this extrinsic evidence of any kind? Not really is it? Except to the guy who took it and those who trust him. Or someone like me who doesn't care too much to investigate other's extrinsic evidence, except to note for myself any similarities, etc... if that makes sense to you.. I don't rely on other for what I think I know... so I don't claim to know too much....hypothesize a bit though! And now see many, many in the past have learned the same things I have or more (or less) , and just now experiencing are learning similar.......hard to decipher any of it until I was out there enough...and I don't judge so much others who are sincere and honest with some of these claims, except absorb it and consider it, tuck away until II know more....

http://bigfooteviden...t.html?spref=fb

Edited April 22, 2013 by apehuman

[Guest]

.....are not magical, mystical, paranormal, spiritual, supernatural, or what have you.

I have to make the admission up front that I have NOT yet read the thread. I will do so after I post, so I realize I'm probably repeating.

What you described.... magical, mystical, paranormal, spiritual, supernatural or what have you.... completely describes the phenomenon of religion (all of them).... but we are not used to defining them in such a way. And the vast majority of people on the planet have beliefs systems that incorporate at least some of these terms. I know human beings who also have been described in such terms... it's not THAT much of a stretch to make connections with these concepts with a mysterious creature that we know little about.

Personally, I think what we call bigfoot is a human-ape creature of flesh and blood - what makes it seem so weird to us, is that it is neither an intelligent ape/animal nor a modern human... it is somewhere in between and we have no frame of reference to compare it to, and so it is kinda freaky. And unknown, possibly dangerous and mysterious things get labels like... magical, spiritual, supernatural etc. I think it's human nature to do so... it's trying to describe something for which we have no adequate words or context.

I also think bigfooting has such a bad reputation already, that searching for a paranormal/Nephilim bigfoot really doesn't do much harm to us... the harm has already been done.

Now, off to read!

[Guest]

OK, I've read it all. One more comment.... about aliens and bigfoot - OK, two comments.

First, if I ever see a UFO while out looking for bigfoot I am GONE! I want nothing to do with that, lol! I'll be out of here and hiding in my house for the rest of my life, you will all be amazed!

Second, IF there are UFO's associated with bigfoot, to kinda quote Spock (LOL), perhaps it's human arrogance to assume aliens are here to interact with humans.... I've toyed with the idea that if there ARE aliens and they ARE coming to earth, perhaps they are observing how a civilization deals with the upcoming discovery that we are NOT a one-sentient-species planet... but TWO, and that they might be keeping track of (or assisting somehow) the secondary species (bigfoots)...

Huh.

Edited April 23, 2013 by madison5716

[Guest]

Second, IF there are UFO's associated with bigfoot, to kinda quote Spock (LOL), perhaps it's human arrogance to assume aliens are here to interact with humans....

It might amuse you to know that was exactly the same scene that played through my mind earlier when someone introduced UFOs up thread.

But to quote Spock from the episode The Immunity Syndrome, "To speculate without evidence is illogical", which is what I believe promoters of PSI and other paranormal new age woo are doing.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Leftfoot