Is Habituation A Safety Hazard?

[Guest]

Oh, Christ!

 

[LeafTalker]

Bigfoots would have access to tomatoes in many places, and oranges in Florida, avacados in California, wild onions everywhere. Plus, they are primates, not just 'animals'. So they are more in line with what we eat. This is more of a gifting scenario, not a feeding. The caloric consumption needs of a BF are probably 2-3x what a human needs just to support the huge brain, not to mention the primate strength (10x + human). They are not going to rely on gifting scraps people give them. They steal food out of coolers, unlocked cabins, etc. The only danger I would see is foreign stuff from other countiries, like the giant african snails they found in Texas, that could be an issue.  Plus, in the case where they steal chickens or other livestock, food gifting might be able to compromise and end that type of situation.

 

I agree with you, Wag. I actually agree with BastetsCat, too -- but this nuance you're providing here, Wag, is important, I think.

 

BF are more like us than they are like other animals. (I know, we're animals, too. Totally agree!) We offer feasts to visitors, to welcome them. That is the spirit in which an offering of, say, a single apple in the woods is made, and the spirit in which it is accepted and understood. (But I agree, if you want to avoid leaving things like oranges and avocados, in case something else gets hold of it, that's a wise and loving choice to make! Although, again, here's a nuance: If you are in a situation where you have been in contact with BF individuals over time -- that is, you know each other a little bit -- it is very unlikely that more than seconds elapse between the time you walk away from your gift, and the moment that gift is taken. They observe us way more closely than we realize, and are right there with us way more often than we realize.)

 

It is hard to come up with one rule that applies under all conditions, at all times (except for my favorite rule, which is to show respect). 

 

P.S. Per that video you just posted, Wag: I think BF can get testy when they're accustomed to finding food in greater quantities around someone's house, and that supply of food diminishes, for whatever reason. But as Florida Reader has shown, and others have experienced, even this you can recover from. They understand us; we can negotiate with them. It all depends on the energy/courage we have for that, and on the individuals we're dealing with (BastetsCat and I agree on this, that 'personality' matters; that all these Sasquatch people are different!)

 

My advice is, if you're worried about your own ability to overcome a difficulty, a misunderstanding, that could arise from leaving them food in quantity around your house, by all means, do not do that.    

 

Love this, Apehuman, and forgot to say that: "A year or two ago I felt more certain about some ideas..conventional ideas from other species we have destroyed or studied...... I am less sure today of what is right or wrong...they are really intelligent, more than I think Finding Bigfoot implies and many seem to think..." 

Edited May 8, 2013 by LeafTalker

[Guest]

I want to touch on something here.  You said ---   it is very unlikely that more than seconds elapse between the time you walk away from your gift, and the moment that gift is taken.   ---  do you not know how long this is?  Do you not witness them taking these gifts? 

[LeafTalker]

Friends who record audio (I don't do this -- yet) have recorded sounds of their own footsteps disappearing into the distance, followed instantly by the sounds of other footsteps approaching the spot they had just left. 

 

Edited to add: Just because you cannot see them or hear them does not mean they are not there. That is what makes all this so confusing (and fun) -- until it's not confusing any more. And after the confusion ends, it's fun for other reasons.    

Edited May 8, 2013 by LeafTalker

[Guest]

BC makes some excellent points. Yes, they are dangerous, and I do not recommend attracting them to your home. However, in my case, they were already there. I heard movement around my house at night, and I confronted it with bright lights and visible firepower. At which time we discovered we were not dealing with humans. A very tense confrontation that fortunately did not end in violence. I began studying my unknown potential foe. As I learned what they liked and did not like, I stopped using bright lights. I relaxed my defensive behavior. Their behavior became less threatening as well. Finally, a daytime sighting (non threatening) made me think about gifting. After several weeks I left an apple out on my side of a fence. It sat there for two weeks. After which, I cut in two and threw it toward the woods. I replaced it with another apple that sat there for two weeks. Then I cut it in half and threw it toward the woods. That night, while I was smoking a cigar in the back yard, they approached from three sides simultaneously. They hit the back fence. I whistled and they responded with what sounded like a child trying to imitate a whistle. They watched while I finished my cigar. They approached again the next time I smoked a cigar. Everything was the same except they did not respond vocally to my whistle. Two more times they came, but instead of hitting the fence, they knocked on it.

Now, every few days I leave a small amount of food, usually bread and salted peanuts in the shell, out near the tree line. I hear them come around sometimes, and now and then I see their eye shine/glow. This has gone on for nearly a year. They leave my animals alone. They make no threatening actions. Do they make me nervous, yes. Do I make them nervous, probably. We both recognize the other is there, and we are okay with it. This may or may not make sense to you, but it happened and continues to happen. The point is, like the NA have said, it is better to think of them like people. They are intelligent. They are capable of respecting boundaries and property. Of course, this is a sample set of one, so there is no way to know how likely we are to repeat this scenario. But, it does tell us it is possible, and that they are more like us than many believe.

I don't recommend buying land with BF on it, but if you find yourself in this spot, try being a good neighbor.

[Guest]

In that case it doesn't sound too hazardous.

[Guest]

I wish I had a plus, great post FR.  I think what changes for many of us, is that we quit viewing BFs as typical animals (even apes) and in possession of much  more discernment than we envision based on experience with other species.  I agree viewing them more as wild humans is a better model,  how that plays out in terms of hazard I think depends on the researcher too.  I would not be surprised if they are ever recognized by government that any interaction might be subject to regulation....hard to say...will we ever see a day they are recognized by Government?

Edited May 8, 2013 by apehuman

[Guest BastetsCat]

My post mostly was in the line of thinking that BF are not the only thing in the woods. Nor is the habituator the only person in the woods. Potentially every inch of space can be crossed by everything and everyone; so to speak.

 

I have read over the years how some researchers have left food out, and it appalls me. I can't tell anyone how to live, just ask that everyone thinks about your actions and have respect. Not just for the other people, but also for the other animals that live there.

 

I have had the experience twice in two different locations of living with BF nearby. They are in my opinion very individual in their personalities. The first location felt primarily safe, the second one not at all. In the first location I never even thought about carrying a gun around with me; the second location; well, you would have been hard pressed to find me without a gun, and in a group with other people. The first location I was often outside at night, even if they were obviously out and about...some places I avoided, but mostly felt okay being outside. The second location- not on your life would I wander around at night. If I had to, then it was with other people and got it over with Quickly. I.E. horses escaped.

 

I don't think they are more dangerous at night than in the day, but I have the handicap at night. People are not made for the night like they are. 

 

The feelings I got from the first location was that we were a humorous diversion. Something to be amused by. There were still limits to the safe feeling. Feeling sometimes like if they got the notion they could and would ****** someone away, curiosity being key. Actually had a VERY close encounter with at least three in the dark (based on footfalls in the river). Once on dry land though I heard nothing. Felt overwhelmingly sad and depressive. Not sure what would have happened if my friend hadn't of been worried and came and found me. The one was with in feet of us, and we thought it was a tree...in the daylight there was NO tree there. Scared me more later, but it was a freaky experience to go through at the time.

 

The feelings I got from the second area was more like they didn't want people around period. Though we did go out to pick pine nuts a few times in the pinion trees. Once I found a giant pile of pine nuts on my porch the next day. Some would say that was a gift, but truthfully it felt like a threat. Like I watched you pick these and I am letting you know what I saw. Not long after that my cat disappeared.

 

Think about the gifts you give, if you do decide to give them. Only you can judge the personality of the ones that are around. I do think of them as being more human than animal. In that I think there is the potential to offend them with giving and receiving gifts, besides and outside the reasoning of my other post. Most likely you are pretty safe in interactions if you use your brain and think rationally. I would like to go a step further and say always operate on a level of respect, but don't be taken advantage of either.

 

One other thing that I have seen happen that I really didn't like, but would love to know who did it. I lived out in the boonies and daily drove a twenty something mile stretch of highway 131. It is a two lane road that starts in Wolcot Colorado and ends in Steamboat. On the divide around 10 miles north of Wolcot is where I was tracked by a tall biped at night when I was around 17 years old. Either someone else also saw something or figured out where we were, because I often encountered whole frozen chickens, oranges, lettuce, bananas...all sorts of groceries strewn on the road from the top of the divide down to state bridge. That is three or four miles of down hill road, no pull offs narrow road, and private land around it. Once and I would have thought nothing of it, but this was constant. Not a lot of people out there, but there are a few. No cell service...boonies. Not a lot of traffic either. I have seen a few others, the teddy bear was just about a mile south of state bridge the second time I saw her. There was a big one in a snowstorm crouched by the side of the road and jumped up and ran at my car and behind it as I passed. So I have to think that who ever dumped the food also saw things on that stretch of road.

[Guest]

BC,

Great post. I think all too often, they meet humans too quick to shoot at anything scary. the result being a hostile relationship.

As you know, when you see how they operate, it is quite sobering. They move like a small infantry unit, and they do it all the time. I suspect they try to hide evidence of thier passage because of other BF not just because of humans. They are definately afraid of guns. Just the sight of a gun made some of them immediately withdraw. I am guessing dad BF was still close. I was in a location where they could not get behind me. I did not point the gun at them either. This happened when I was still trying to figure out what I was dealing with at night. This likely precipitated the confrontation that occurred shortly after. At about midnight one night they started throwing things against the house and running across the roof. At that moment we became certain we were dealing with something that wasn't supposed to exist. My wife looked at me and said, "call the police". I said, "why, they aren't going to find anything". I would never stand up to a BF on his/her turf, but this was my house. I thought about my options. I decided the best thing would be to avoid a fight, that's why I left the long guns in the house. I went out with a powerful handgun and enough ammo to kill at least 5 black bears. I also believed that if things turned violent, I probably would not get to reload. Some felons practice crossing 20 feet or more, with a knife, before their intended victim can effectively draw a gun to defend themselves. As you know, a BF is significantly faster than a human. Then there are the seeing in the dark and built in ghillie suit advantages. When I stepped out my front door that night, one of them was kicking our fence at one side of our property. Obviously it was a distraction. As a military guy, I've been to Baghdad and few other unhappy places, but this night was as scary as any. I went out to the middle of the yard. I shined my flashlight around (saw no eye shine of any kind) with my weak hand. I was ready with my strong hand should they charge. I would have done my very best to kill anything that ran at me. I was also thinking about how they are very good at throwing things. My wife had followed me out (against my wishes) and the kids with her. They were terrified and huddled by the door. Maybe it was their pressence that prevented anything more from happening. We waited for several minuts (felt like an hour). Nothing was thrown and nothing charged out of the darkness. The kicking stopped. We went back inside. I started learning about BF, and I wore a gun every night for months. I stopped shining bright lights and eventually we became friendly (see my earlier post). My family is still nervous knowing they're out there, but they are comfortable enough now for me to travel.

I don't believe we're doing anything to endanger other people, because we have found a peaceful common ground. As I mentioned previously, we have outside animals, and they leave them alone.

[Guest DWA]

Any kind of human interaction with any large animal - particularly homo sapiens, but any other as well - carries inherent risk.  This risk is never eliminated no matter what.  It doesn't even particularly decrease.

[Guest]

It was a great post BasetsCats and many particulars I want to hear more about..the excessive depressed feelings.....in close proximity are very interesting...as the rest of it.  

 

I understood your concern for other critters and did try and address it in my post...personally at some point I decided i would go ahead with the gifting (it took quite a while actually for the reasons you stated) and afford the other critters  some food should they get there first.  

 

I made a priority choice, but also made a point to do this outside campgrounds for the most part..with the exception of a few wrapped items I left on the table....and I kept close tabs on bear traffic.....     anyway.. I agree in theory and know in practice I made a questionable choice....

 

It is one of the first things we discuss in the Habituating Thread.......depends on the person and BF as you note above in terms of that hazard......     It is a big question and the answers not clear, and I do tend more to sharing a bit than not....but, I also think they are more human than animal...and again I set my priority of the little critters lower...    (if I could live my life without harm to animals...well I couldn't, b/c I do eat meat!).

 

Anyway...  very interesting post and hope to hear more!  I also think this area is one we just have to give some leeway to each other, so i appreciate your restraint from being judgmental on this approach.........I do think any trained Anthropologist would agree with you.....now if we can just get them out there!  p.s. point me to a blog or where you curate your experiences if you do!

Edited May 9, 2013 by apehuman

[dmaker]

The risk is probably eliminated if the animal in question is imaginary. Just sayin...

[Guest DWA]

Somebody else can test that one.

[Guest AJJA]

Booger,

I don’t believe Jaryd Atadero was attacked by a mountain lion either.

Jaryd’s pants were found inside out and a mountain lion expert out of California said cougars never pull someone’s clothes off and leave them there. 

It was reported that Jary’s tracks ended close to a mountain lion’s tracks. There was a small paragraph in the newspaper a day later stating that a wildlife expert examined the tracks and they did not belong to a mountain lion. I guess no one read that part of the story. Also, Jaryd’s clothing was sent to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and they found no mountain hairs or blood on anything. It was interesting because a mountain would have left his jacket a mess, but it was all together. Dr. Baden, out of New York, said there would be body tissue all over Jaryd’s Jacket and shoes, yet nothing was found. I’ve held Jaryd’s jacket, but to this day, I haven’t seen any mountain lion bite marks. I wish people wouldn’t believe everything they read in the newspaper.  

There are a lot of unanswered questions in Jaryd’s case. A deputy, who refused to identify himself, called Jaryd’s father and told him there was a lot more to the case that wasn’t being shared with him.

Deputies never searched the area where Jaryd’s clothing was found, even after the family asked them to do so. They were told they didn’t need to search that area because a helicopter did a fly-by.

Edited May 10, 2013 by AJJA

[Guest]

Booger,

I don’t believe Jaryd Atadero was attacked by a mountain lion either.

Jaryd’s pants were found inside out and a mountain lion expert out of California said cougars never pull someone’s clothes off and leave them there. 

It was reported that Jary’s tracks ended close to a mountain lion’s tracks. There was a small paragraph in the newspaper a day later stating that a wildlife expert examined the tracks and they did not belong to a mountain lion. I guess no one read that part of the story. Also, Jaryd’s clothing was sent to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and they found no mountain hairs or blood on anything. It was interesting because a mountain would have left his jacket a mess, but it was all together. Dr. Baden, out of New York, said there would be body tissue all over Jaryd’s Jacket and shoes, yet nothing was found. I’ve held Jaryd’s jacket, but to this day, I haven’t seen any mountain lion bite marks. I wish people wouldn’t believe everything they read in the newspaper.  

There are a lot of answered questions in Jaryd’s case. A deputy, who refused to identify himself, called Jaryd’s father and told him there was a lot more to the case that wasn’t being shared with him.

Deputies never searched the area where Jaryd’s clothing was found, even after the family asked them to do so. They were told they didn’t need to search that area because a helicopter did a fly-by.

 

Thanks for the extra info! Where did you get it?