norseman Posted June 1, 2013 Admin Author Posted June 1, 2013 I think to dichotomize camps into purebred American mountain men vs. Subaru driving nimby vegetarians is inaccurate. There are many conservationists out there...... some hunters, some not, some real American cowboy Patriots, some inveterate laissez fair progressives. The complexity of Sasquatch to me is they are a true American enigma. Could they be endangered? Sure? Is it likely? I think not. If you are going about this search and kill as a public service I'm confused about how you plan on translating your kill into science. What is your plan? Are the details in the early part of this thread? Just asking? The two camps you are talking about that I hypothesized are both apart of the anti kill camp........just so your aware. And I don't understand your "translating your kill into science" statement. Science needs a type specimen to establish a species. Any accredited Zoologist would be able to take that body and make hay with it..........
Guest Posted June 1, 2013 Posted June 1, 2013 Does it really have to be so extreme as to be an " animal rights type " though ? I've always had those sort of people down to be a bit wacko, someone who would tie themselves to a fence naked at a Pig farm or something crazy like that, a bit extreme. Misconception. Those folks arent animal rights activists. Those folks are PETA types. PETA is not an animal rights group. PETA is a topic-specific media organization who has no goals other than to bring attention to themselves, rather than to what they report. They have no animal rights in mind. No organization who spends their time, money, and resources on trying to change the word "fish" to "sea kitten" while doing nothing to stop Shark finning in the Tropical Pacific and off Central America, the whaling taking place in the Southern Ocean and the North Atlantic, the Dolphin slaughter in Japan and the North Atlantic, the Seal slaughter in Canada, and the Rattlesnake slaughter in the southern USA, is a legitimate animal rights organization. It's a shame that most people see any animal rights activism as being equivalent to what PETA does. (Sorry for the derail, but I consider myself a supporter of animal welfare and to an extent, animal rights, and I hate being associated with PETA by everyone I talk to about it )
bipedalist Posted June 1, 2013 BFF Patron Posted June 1, 2013 I think antikill is where I am at...... if you crunch the numbers..... there are more examples of higher intelligence in a huge number of sightings than the average bear admits or cares to pursue. As to the average government researcher assigned to Sasquatch, I think they know more about Sasquatch than an off the rack Zoologist would discover in the first 3 hours with a specimen. But that is just my thoughts on the matter.
Ike Posted June 1, 2013 Posted June 1, 2013 (edited) What I don't understand, is that neither you nor any other posting I have read ever states that you wish to start a bigfoot hunting season. Invariably, it seems to me that every post about taking a specimen somehow translates into peoples minds that there is going to be a big push by hundreds if not thousands of people to hit the woods to gun one down for sport. I suppose in some ways this plays into your original inquiry. Why do people make this leap? My guess is within the BF community it is largely driven by bandwagon hopping. Without trying to pry into politics, I think many in today's society have been brainwashed for lack of better term, into the philosophy that mankind is inherently, if not wantonly evil and destructive to the environment and an unnatural part of it. Edited June 1, 2013 by Ike
norseman Posted June 1, 2013 Admin Author Posted June 1, 2013 I think antikill is where I am at...... if you crunch the numbers..... there are more examples of higher intelligence in a huge number of sightings than the average bear admits or cares to pursue. As to the average government researcher assigned to Sasquatch, I think they know more about Sasquatch than an off the rack Zoologist would discover in the first 3 hours with a specimen. But that is just my thoughts on the matter. I think that is rather debatable (their intelligence). And I'm confused............who are these "average" government researchers assigned to Sasquatch? Zoology is the science in which we trust every other species on this planet to...........so why not Sasquatch?
Guest Posted June 1, 2013 Posted June 1, 2013 (edited) Bff Members- seems this thread had left track a little bit so I will put my 2 cents in. IMHO the Bigfoot should be left alone. Some members have talked about proof and some members raised the question about habitate and one members continues to assert that a type specimen is needed and the processes that inclued all three.Let me start with scientific proof. All states probably have their own requirements about what constitutes scientific proof. California will not entertain the (any) public recommendation about protect for BF unless you show them two things, which is a peer-reviewed DNA report, not nessesarily a type specimen and verifiable proof of a population within their boundaries. BTW CA. F&W Comm. enacted protection for the single Grey Wolf that seperated itself from the pack of grey wolves that were placed in eastern Oregon and that singular wolf is now on the endangered species list for Ca. OK- #2- habitiate. The bill that our team proposed asked for a "free roam" policy , which in all fairness is recognized by for most game and non-game animals in Ca. and allows BF to go wherever; as if it could be contained, LOL, and our bill asked for hunting prohibition or harrassing BF. Four or five other issues depending on what the DNA shows would be worked out in conference as issues are resolved which inclueds penalties, research peramiters, permit qulifications, private property rights etc. Let me just say that this subject may not be worked out on a forum board but opinions are certainly noteworthy. Furthermore as far as the kill-no kill camps are concerned, if anyone wants to know how the processes are worked out they should at least start by looking into what your own state laws and processes and guidelines are to get a more clear view of what protection encompasses and what scientific proof is.As far as intelligence, that also has a process already layed out for classification. Edited June 1, 2013 by ptangier
norseman Posted June 1, 2013 Admin Author Posted June 1, 2013 What I don't understand, is that neither you nor any other posting I have read ever states that you wish to start a bigfoot hunting season. Invariably, it seems to me that every post about taking a specimen somehow translates into peoples minds that there is going to be a big push by hundreds if not thousands of people to hit the woods to gun one down for sport. I suppose in some ways this plays into your original inquiry. Why do people make this leap? My guess is within the BF community it is largely driven by bandwagon hopping. Without trying to pry into politics, I think many in today's society have been brainwashed for lack of better term, into the philosophy that mankind is inherently, if not wantonly evil and destructive to the environment and an unnatural part of it. Well sure, we are a culture of stereotypes.......I'll openly admit that. So if we prove one exists then every redneck on the planet is going to be out trying to kill it........it's not logical, but a understandable mindset. If Sasquatch is real? Sasquatch and Redneckus Gunpackerius occupy the same habitat currently and at some point the two species are going to bump into each other and possibly have violent outcomes of said encounter. I as a pro kill advocate am not promoting a Sasquatch hunting season..........anywhere. But instead protection of the species upon recognition.
Guest Posted June 1, 2013 Posted June 1, 2013 Norseman, Nice little plan. I didn't read all of it. It follows the first rule of bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is self sustaining. No major manager of the IRS will ever advocate a less complicated tax code that would require fewer employees. Did you notice the funding part? I have read countless government plans. Having a well organized and well staffed document is just that. Plans are most useful for outlining who will use what when. I am confident the USFWS can justify ways to spend my tax dollars. Beyond that ? Ask the Nez Perce if they will trade their iPods and cars collectively for all their original territory. I think they'd rather have their land and the lost relatives. Freedom to make their own decisions. I could be wrong. BTW, While BF are not homo sapiens, they are not like bears either. I'll agree with you that science should be applied, but where is it? I believe BF is real. I believe they eat and drink. Therefore they live and they die. So is it more likely that we have never had a body, or that someone has decided they should remain hidden? I'm guessing when Mt St Helen popped it's cork, some BF died along with the people nearby.
bipedalist Posted June 1, 2013 BFF Patron Posted June 1, 2013 Does it really have to be so extreme as to be an " animal rights type " though ? I've always had those sort of people down to be a bit wacko, someone who would tie themselves to a fence naked at a Pig farm or something crazy like that, a bit extreme. Misconception. Those folks arent animal rights activists. Those folks are PETA types. PETA is not an animal rights group. PETA is a topic-specific media organization who has no goals other than to bring attention to themselves, rather than to what they report. They have no animal rights in mind. No organization who spends their time, money, and resources on trying to change the word "fish" to "sea kitten" while doing nothing to stop Shark finning in the Tropical Pacific and off Central America, the whaling taking place in the Southern Ocean and the North Atlantic, the Dolphin slaughter in Japan and the North Atlantic, the Seal slaughter in Canada, and the Rattlesnake slaughter in the southern USA, is a legitimate animal rights organization. It's a shame that most people see any animal rights activism as being equivalent to what PETA does. (Sorry for the derail, but I consider myself a supporter of animal welfare and to an extent, animal rights, and I hate being associated with PETA by everyone I talk to about it ) Amen, and Ike, who is your message directed at........?
norseman Posted June 1, 2013 Admin Author Posted June 1, 2013 Norseman, Nice little plan. I didn't read all of it. It follows the first rule of bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is self sustaining. No major manager of the IRS will ever advocate a less complicated tax code that would require fewer employees. Did you notice the funding part? I have read countless government plans. Having a well organized and well staffed document is just that. Plans are most useful for outlining who will use what when. I am confident the USFWS can justify ways to spend my tax dollars. Beyond that ? Ask the Nez Perce if they will trade their iPods and cars collectively for all their original territory. I think they'd rather have their land and the lost relatives. Freedom to make their own decisions. I could be wrong. BTW, While BF are not homo sapiens, they are not like bears either. I'll agree with you that science should be applied, but where is it? I believe BF is real. I believe they eat and drink. Therefore they live and they die. So is it more likely that we have never had a body, or that someone has decided they should remain hidden? I'm guessing when Mt St Helen popped it's cork, some BF died along with the people nearby. I don't like bureaucracy either..........but I have NO illusions as to what would happen to Grizzly bears without protection. Land vs. living a stone age lifestyle? I think your wrong.............yes. It's a romantic thought, but native Americans are just Americans like you and I........they would not survive a banishment to a stone age lifestyle. So what is your question? Are you asking why we have never found one that has died of natural causes? Does it really have to be so extreme as to be an " animal rights type " though ? I've always had those sort of people down to be a bit wacko, someone who would tie themselves to a fence naked at a Pig farm or something crazy like that, a bit extreme. Misconception. Those folks arent animal rights activists. Those folks are PETA types. PETA is not an animal rights group. PETA is a topic-specific media organization who has no goals other than to bring attention to themselves, rather than to what they report. They have no animal rights in mind. No organization who spends their time, money, and resources on trying to change the word "fish" to "sea kitten" while doing nothing to stop Shark finning in the Tropical Pacific and off Central America, the whaling taking place in the Southern Ocean and the North Atlantic, the Dolphin slaughter in Japan and the North Atlantic, the Seal slaughter in Canada, and the Rattlesnake slaughter in the southern USA, is a legitimate animal rights organization. It's a shame that most people see any animal rights activism as being equivalent to what PETA does. (Sorry for the derail, but I consider myself a supporter of animal welfare and to an extent, animal rights, and I hate being associated with PETA by everyone I talk to about it ) As far as I'm concerned? The Humane society are a bunch of wackos....... I got into it with them about hound hunting. Which strangely enough when it was outlawed in Washington I gave my hounds to a couple of Indian kids from the Colville Indian Reservation where it is still legal.
Guest Posted June 1, 2013 Posted June 1, 2013 I am guessing that somewhere in the last fifty years the GOVT has acquired deceased BF bodies. Whether through natural causes or a hunter or a Mack truck it most likely happened. What do we see officially, nada. So, I don't think killing another will do any good. JMO.
norseman Posted June 1, 2013 Admin Author Posted June 1, 2013 I am guessing that somewhere in the last fifty years the GOVT has acquired deceased BF bodies. Whether through natural causes or a hunter or a Mack truck it most likely happened. What do we see officially, nada. So, I don't think killing another will do any good. JMO. Conspiracy theory alert! Well I guess what the difference is is that if I shoot one and get it to ISU? Then it's going to be public knowledge, which can bring pressure to bear on management of the species. We may be treading to close to politics here.........I dunno.
Guest Posted June 1, 2013 Posted June 1, 2013 Norseman, Nice little plan. I didn't read all of it. It follows the first rule of bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is self sustaining. No major manager of the IRS will ever advocate a less complicated tax code that would require fewer employees. Did you notice the funding part? I have read countless government plans. Having a well organized and well staffed document is just that. Plans are most useful for outlining who will use what when. I am confident the USFWS can justify ways to spend my tax dollars. Beyond that ? Ask the Nez Perce if they will trade their iPods and cars collectively for all their original territory. I think they'd rather have their land and the lost relatives. Freedom to make their own decisions. I could be wrong. BTW, While BF are not homo sapiens, they are not like bears either. I'll agree with you that science should be applied, but where is it? I believe BF is real. I believe they eat and drink. Therefore they live and they die. So is it more likely that we have never had a body, or that someone has decided they should remain hidden? I'm guessing when Mt St Helen popped it's cork, some BF died along with the people nearby. I don't like bureaucracy either..........but I have NO illusions as to what would happen to Grizzly bears without protection. Land vs. living a stone age lifestyle? I think your wrong.............yes. It's a romantic thought, but native Americans are just Americans like you and I........they would not survive a banishment to a stone age lifestyle. So what is your question? Are you asking why we have never found one that has died of natural causes? Does it really have to be so extreme as to be an " animal rights type " though ? I've always had those sort of people down to be a bit wacko, someone who would tie themselves to a fence naked at a Pig farm or something crazy like that, a bit extreme. Misconception. Those folks arent animal rights activists. Those folks are PETA types. PETA is not an animal rights group. PETA is a topic-specific media organization who has no goals other than to bring attention to themselves, rather than to what they report. They have no animal rights in mind. No organization who spends their time, money, and resources on trying to change the word "fish" to "sea kitten" while doing nothing to stop Shark finning in the Tropical Pacific and off Central America, the whaling taking place in the Southern Ocean and the North Atlantic, the Dolphin slaughter in Japan and the North Atlantic, the Seal slaughter in Canada, and the Rattlesnake slaughter in the southern USA, is a legitimate animal rights organization. It's a shame that most people see any animal rights activism as being equivalent to what PETA does. (Sorry for the derail, but I consider myself a supporter of animal welfare and to an extent, animal rights, and I hate being associated with PETA by everyone I talk to about it ) As far as I'm concerned? The Humane society are a bunch of wackos....... I got into it with them about hound hunting. Which strangely enough when it was outlawed in Washington I gave my hounds to a couple of Indian kids from the Colville Indian Reservation where it is still legal. Humane society is just as bad as PETA.
norseman Posted June 1, 2013 Admin Author Posted June 1, 2013 Norseman, Nice little plan. I didn't read all of it. It follows the first rule of bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is self sustaining. No major manager of the IRS will ever advocate a less complicated tax code that would require fewer employees. Did you notice the funding part? I have read countless government plans. Having a well organized and well staffed document is just that. Plans are most useful for outlining who will use what when. I am confident the USFWS can justify ways to spend my tax dollars. Beyond that ? Ask the Nez Perce if they will trade their iPods and cars collectively for all their original territory. I think they'd rather have their land and the lost relatives. Freedom to make their own decisions. I could be wrong. BTW, While BF are not homo sapiens, they are not like bears either. I'll agree with you that science should be applied, but where is it? I believe BF is real. I believe they eat and drink. Therefore they live and they die. So is it more likely that we have never had a body, or that someone has decided they should remain hidden? I'm guessing when Mt St Helen popped it's cork, some BF died along with the people nearby. I don't like bureaucracy either..........but I have NO illusions as to what would happen to Grizzly bears without protection. Land vs. living a stone age lifestyle? I think your wrong.............yes. It's a romantic thought, but native Americans are just Americans like you and I........they would not survive a banishment to a stone age lifestyle. So what is your question? Are you asking why we have never found one that has died of natural causes? Does it really have to be so extreme as to be an " animal rights type " though ? I've always had those sort of people down to be a bit wacko, someone who would tie themselves to a fence naked at a Pig farm or something crazy like that, a bit extreme. Misconception. Those folks arent animal rights activists. Those folks are PETA types. PETA is not an animal rights group. PETA is a topic-specific media organization who has no goals other than to bring attention to themselves, rather than to what they report. They have no animal rights in mind. No organization who spends their time, money, and resources on trying to change the word "fish" to "sea kitten" while doing nothing to stop Shark finning in the Tropical Pacific and off Central America, the whaling taking place in the Southern Ocean and the North Atlantic, the Dolphin slaughter in Japan and the North Atlantic, the Seal slaughter in Canada, and the Rattlesnake slaughter in the southern USA, is a legitimate animal rights organization. It's a shame that most people see any animal rights activism as being equivalent to what PETA does. (Sorry for the derail, but I consider myself a supporter of animal welfare and to an extent, animal rights, and I hate being associated with PETA by everyone I talk to about it ) As far as I'm concerned? The Humane society are a bunch of wackos....... I got into it with them about hound hunting. Which strangely enough when it was outlawed in Washington I gave my hounds to a couple of Indian kids from the Colville Indian Reservation where it is still legal. Humane society is just as bad as PETA. Well............which animal rights group do you recommend??? I'm thinking they are all wackos. But I'm a strong supporter of conservation groups such as Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mtn Elk Foundation, Safari Club Int., etc.........
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