N A W A C - Field Study Discussion

[BobbyO]

Essentially every deer was killed, every wolf, every elk, every cougar.

I have seen you parrot this exaggerated claim many times. Proving that there isn't a single cougar left in the entire state would be absolutely impossible. We couldn't accomplish this today, and we certainly couldn't accomplish it then. Even today, most of these animals can live their entire lives without ever being observed by a human. I firmly suspect that Google Earth is as close as you have ever been to being immersed in the type of terrain being discussed.

We couldn't accomplish that Cougars are not in OK today because they are in OK today, they are very much at home in OK's near 8m acres of forested land just like they were at home in the pre logging 13m acres of forested land in OK in the 1800's..

[Drew]

Not to belabor a point, nor derail a thread, but I feel like I need to correct information presented in this thread.

 

I just spent the last few hours pouring over the logging history of Oklahoma and the Ouachita National Forest.  According to the facts that I found, of the original 13 million acres of forested lands in Oklahoma (as recorded in 1804), 8 million acres remained in forest cover by the time the National Forest preserve was established in 1908.  Commercial logging in OK began in 1880, but didn't enter many areas until 1898. In fact, the Indian Territories (including Area X) are described in 1898 as "vast unharvested timberlands." Logging in those areas didn't start until 1907. By 1908, the Forest Preserve that would become the Ouachita National Forest was established and protecting lands from over harvest.  I further found that only certain trees were ever harvested (mainly pine), leaving plenty of unmerchantable trees standing.  This is hardly the view that every single tree in OK was cut down and no habitat was available in the 1800s to the 1900s.

 

"According to the southern forest resource assessment, in 1630 Oklahoma had 13.3 million acres of forests with 133 tree species. By the 1930s less than 200,000 acres of virgin forest in eastern Oklahoma remained. The U.S. Forest Service estimates we now have 7.665 million acres of forest-58 % of the original acreage. Forest surveys have shown increases in the forest during the past 20 years due to better management and reforestation."

 

http://www.forestry.ok.gov/lost-forest

 

Think I'll get any hi-fives for the facts I'm posting?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Drew

[Drew]

 

We couldn't accomplish that Cougars are not in OK today because they are in OK today, they are very much at home in OK's near 8m acres of forested land just like they were at home in the pre logging 13m acres of forested land in OK in the 1800's..

 

Again, some people would tend to disagree that there are Cougars in Eastern Oklahoma.  And certainly not breeding populations of them.

 

 

The only documented cases of mountain lions in Oklahoma since 2004 are:

2004 - Radio collared male killed by train near Red Rock, Oklahoma. Came from the Black Hills of South Dakota.

2006 – Cimarron Co. was depredating on an individual’s goats and was killed. Male

2009 – Tillman Co along Red River seen on trail cam on private land. Sex unknown

2009 – Atoka Co. trail cam photo on private land. Sex unknown

2010 – Cimarron Co. lion killed by hunters Male

2010 – Texas Co. Radio collared male released by Colorado Division of Wildlife in North Central Colorado on October   30, 2009 on April 3rd it walked into Oklahoma panhandle. It is now in Northeastern New Mexico.

2011 - Female captured in Tulsa, OK DNA -linked to Black Hills of South Dakota, showed no signs of reproduction.

July 2011 - Unknown sex - Trail cam photo North of Sand Springs Oklahoma.

Oct. 12, 2011 – Osage County - Trail cam photo – Sex unknown – Most likely same animal from July trail cam photo

Oct. 26, 2011 – Osage County – Trail cam Photo – Sex Unknown - Most likely same animal from July trail cam photo

Nov. 8, 2011 - Sub-Adult Male - Minco, Oklahoma hit by motorist on Hwy 81

 

 

http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/hunting/mlion_sight.htm

 I would refer you to "Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science" Chapter 15 entitled "Splitting Hairs and Molecules: DNA and Physical Evidence" for a detailed overview of hair and scat evidence as it stood a decade ago. There is a lot of information out there for anyone in the related fields of science with a modicum of curiosity.

 

 

 

Just point me to the test results.  

[BobbyO]

Again, some people would tend to disagree that there are Cougars in Eastern Oklahoma.  And certainly not breeding populations of them.

Yet other would suggest that there are, as well as Eastern Kansas, Western Arkansas and South West MIssouri.

http://www.cougarnet.org/totalus.html

I may be wrong, but I doubt Cougars recognise state lines so if they are confirmed ( which they have been as per the above ) in Eastern OK, Eastern KS, Western AR and South West MO, would that not suggest breeding animals somewhere within the vicinity of those four corners ?

[Guest DWA]

 

I have seen you parrot this exaggerated claim many times.

 

Along with the one about how we should be able to stop our trucks at any random place and find scat and hair from all the animals of the forest, so why not bigfoot? As if the forest is like one giant dog run belonging to people who don't pick up. I admit, more than the "every tree was cut down" and "every animal larger than a terrier was killed," this is my current favorite Drewism. 

 

Hate to break it to you bipto, but the terriers bit the dust too.  None.  Nada.  Ground zero.

 

Forest?  You've seen the pictures right?  There are places in OK with no trees.

[Guest]

By the 1930s less than 200,000 acres of virgin forest in eastern Oklahoma remained. 

 

It's the definition of "virgin." HM says some trees were logged while others left behind. You're on record saying you think the entire state was essentially clear-cut.

 

Think I'll get any hi-fives for the facts I'm posting?

 

A lot of your facts are aren't facts.

[Guest DWA]

 

Not to belabor a point, nor derail a thread, but I feel like I need to correct information presented in this thread.

 

I just spent the last few hours pouring over the logging history of Oklahoma and the Ouachita National Forest.  According to the facts that I found, of the original 13 million acres of forested lands in Oklahoma (as recorded in 1804), 8 million acres remained in forest cover by the time the National Forest preserve was established in 1908.  Commercial logging in OK began in 1880, but didn't enter many areas until 1898. In fact, the Indian Territories (including Area X) are described in 1898 as "vast unharvested timberlands." Logging in those areas didn't start until 1907. By 1908, the Forest Preserve that would become the Ouachita National Forest was established and protecting lands from over harvest.  I further found that only certain trees were ever harvested (mainly pine), leaving plenty of unmerchantable trees standing.  This is hardly the view that every single tree in OK was cut down and no habitat was available in the 1800s to the 1900s.

 

"According to the southern forest resource assessment, in 1630 Oklahoma had 13.3 million acres of forests with 133 tree species. By the 1930s less than 200,000 acres of virgin forest in eastern Oklahoma remained. The U.S. Forest Service estimates we now have 7.665 million acres of forest-58 % of the original acreage. Forest surveys have shown increases in the forest during the past 20 years due to better management and reforestation."

 

http://www.forestry.ok.gov/lost-forest

 

Think I'll get any hi-fives for the facts I'm posting?

 

Sure, here!

 

hi-five

 

This is not about garnering digits.  It is about talking past facts.  See, bigfoot skeptics have this bad tendency to rely on "because of these statistics, the evidence isn't happening."  Not our fault that you're kind of compelling us to point out that your stats are irrrelevant because to all appearances there's a viable population of giant bipedal apes in Oklahoma.  Which it would be nice to confirm so we can cut out the societal omerta on the question and find out, maybe, how the heck that happened.

 

"No proof."  Well, once upon a time there wasn't a Milky Way either.  So?

[Guest]

Again, some people would tend to disagree that there are Cougars in Eastern Oklahoma.  

 

I've seen and photographed (and posted to this forum) their tracks. But then again, I've seen and photographed wood ape tracks, so maybe the cougar track was fake. Some guy running around in cougar shoes or something...

[Drew]

I guess the part about breeding populations didn't click.  We know male cougars travel hundreds to thousands of miles.  

 

You left out the part where I said 'certainly not breeding populations',  good job.

 

The part that amazes me, is how did they capture them on game cams, when the forests are too dense and nasty to use game cams?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Drew

[Guest]

Hate to break it to you bipto, but the terriers bit the dust too.  None.  Nada.  Ground zero.

 

You're right. We've collected no evidence at all of terriers in the Ouachitas. Seems like they were wiped out, too.

I guess the part about breeding populations didn't click.  We know male cougars travel hundreds to thousands of miles.  

 

That's somethings state DNRs have to designate and they're loathe to recognize new animals in their jurisdictions for all kinds of administrative and political reasons. This is fact for those of us who know how these agencies work.

 

Case in point. There are no breeding populations of cougar in Minnesota, but in the Minnesota Zoo in Apple Valley, MN, there are two cougars who were brought to the zoo by a hunter who shot and killed a female cougar in Minnesota before he realized she had cubs. But still, the MN DNR says there are no breeding cougars in our state. Huh. Weird. 

Drew, answer me this. Is your participation in this thread to convince others that there cannot be wood apes in Oklahoma? Yes or no.

[Guest DWA]

Forget dachshunds, too.  No footspeed = kielbasa with ears.

 

All that wildlife came from somewhere.  If it came back...well, maybe confirming wood apes would allow us to talk about the dynamic that took place and stop idly speculating on it.  Good luck.  Science always needs it.

[norseman]

Talking about population bottlenecks in the 1800's or Bigfoot mania in the 1950's does nothing to describe what NAWAC is observing in the present. If you think it is a load of hogwash, I really do not see why one would persist in participating in this thread. Does anyone think that their really cool colored graphs and pie charts linked here, are going to convince people that nothing exists, who are hiking around in those woods on a daily basis?

[Guest DWA]

^^^^Something I'd really like to have a conversation about sometime.

 

I mean, given that, right after I'm done here, I'm not running off to a Loch Ness Monster site to just go "NUH-UH!!!!!" over and over and over and ...

[norseman]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Many skeptics come off to me as really intelligent, really well read individuals...........that really do not have much practical knowledge in the real world, which creates a heavy blind spot in their vision. There are of course exceptions to this rule.

[Guest]

Now there's a fact I can high-five.