Possible Ramifications Of Finding A Skeleton?

[Guest]

I've had this page bookmarked for a few years and accidentally opened it this morning, so now thinking it might be a worthwhile topic here. While it was discussed on the old BFF in different contexts, it remains a long-standing issue today that people need to keep in mind. Most will remember the Kennewick Man, a 9,000 year old skeleton found along the Columbia River. It was the Late Grover Krantz who wanted to examine the remains but was never allowed to do so.

The ramifications raised are that if a skeleton of a sasquatch is ever found, will it fall under the protection of NAGPRA? Keep in mind, that even if a skeleton is witnessed at over 8' tall, it may not even receive further inspection to determine what species of hominid it may be. And if there is near human DNA found in the preliminary analysis, as has been found with prior bigfoot evidence, would that end any further analysis from occurring? Would it merely require a recognized Native American tribe to then claim the remains if found on public land?

But, would the obvious height and size of a skeleton be enough for scientists to present an argument that it isn't a traditional Native American? After that, would Native American's still claim that these are their 'Ancestors' because they are a Native People? Either way, I'm sure a host of legal volleys would ensue. Would it bring out more of the NA knowledge of Sasquatch into the public eye as provenance of the remains are declared? To me this would be a wonderful opportunity for Native peoples to educate modern culture of some important history. I've long wanted to discuss with Elders some dilemmas they are posed with in respect to Sasquatch' existence. I recognize their distrust for how modern culture views what is important to them, but I also feel NA's will need to act proactively at some point in recognizing Sasquatch as an existing being, so as to prevent continued harassment of the species. Sasquatch are being hunted by some humans, and so I present as an important consideration to Native American's, that they view remains found as an opportunity to prevent this from continuing in the future. To do this they will need to look at this from a different perspective. This will require trust.

Anyway, there are just a few issues raised here on this University Website.

Our elders have taught us that once a body goes in the ground, it is meant to stay there until the end of time.... We do not believe that our people migrated here from another continent, as the scientists do.... Some scientists say that if this individual is not studied further, we, as Indians, will be destroying evidence of our history. We already know our history. It is passed on to us through our elders and through our religious practices.

Here is the language of the Act itself. Let the discussion begin...

Edited March 21, 2011 by PragmaticTheorist

[Guest]

I remember that mess...what really ticked the NAs off was that the skull showed distinct signs of being that of a Caucasoid (caucasian or white person), NOT a NA. Which would have thrown their whole "first people" argument for a loop. So they freaked out, started yelling and before the remains could be properly examined they'd been confiscated and "repatriated" and the site where it was found overfilled with a ton or so of earth that was then packed down with heavy equipment, ruining the chances of the site producing any more finds.

[Guest]

You can look at a Sasquatch head and tell the skull won't even remotely resemble a human's, unlike that other skull found which was a version of human. Since they have Sasquatch in their legends I don't see how they could claim him as an ancestor since they referred to them as stick indians, in other words they recognized sasquatch as other-human.

[Guest]

You can look at a Sasquatch head and tell the skull won't even remotely resemble a human's, unlike that other skull found which was a version of human. Since they have Sasquatch in their legends I don't see how they could claim him as an ancestor since they referred to them as stick indians, in other words they recognized sasquatch as other-human.

Refered to as "Stick Indian".

That alone is going to cause issues as "THEY WERE" recognized as another type/nation of humans. By the First People already here. By that alone any remains can be claimed and re-patriated. Just because Anthropologists and scientist's want a body, doesn't mean it's going to be automatically handed over. Enough remains have been collected by institutions that are currently mis-identified, unavailable for study ect....At some point to be quite frank until the existing backlog it dealt with, handing over another specimen is catering to an attitude that has already quite disrespectfully handled remains of the deceased.

This becomes a culturally sensitive issue pretty fast. It should become an Ethical issue even faster. Everything was permitted in the name of science in the not so distant past. Today even as it's generally accepted that "we don't proceed that way anymore" can or will that be applied to BF remains? Some group will be proven wrong eventually in the debate whether Relic-Hominid or Great Ape. In the off chance it comes up Hominid do we just say OOPS? again?? After a carcass was treated like a lab-frog? We've either matured as a society or we haven't.

[Hairy Man]

NAGPRA would not apply to bigfoot remains. First, NAGPRA doesn't apply to recent remains (ie., anything younger than 50 years of age). That falls under the authority of the coroner. Secondly, if the remains are older than that, the remains first have to be determined (by the federal land agency) to met the definition in the law of Native American, which is: (9) "Native American" means of, or relating to, a tribe, people, or culture that is indigenous to the United States. There then has to be determination made by the agency that there is either a cultural affiliation by a federally recognized tribe (the remains are their ancestors) or a there is a direct lineal descendant (i.e., that's my grandmother). I know of no tribe that claims bigfoot is their ancestor. An anthropologist would clearly be able to determine that remains are not Homo sapiens as we know it and would never head down the NAGPRA road. Even if a local tribe believed bigfoot to have been a "stick indian" or another tribe, they can not claim remains that are a different species (and since the other portion of the law applies to objects, the remains couldn't be claimed under that either).

If DNA from the remains comes back as "homo something," bigfoot himself would have to be be declared as meeting the definition of 9 above (or change it) AND that they have a cultural value for their own remains AND become federally recognized AND then make their own claim that they want those remains back. And really, if he got that kind of standing, then shoot we'd already know a heck of a lot about him and he can have whatever he wants back!!

Edited March 21, 2011 by HairyMan

[Guest]

Refered to as "Stick Indian".

That alone is going to cause issues as "THEY WERE" recognized as another type/nation of humans. By the First People already here. By that alone any remains can be claimed and re-patriated. Just because Anthropologists and scientist's want a body, doesn't mean it's going to be automatically handed over. Enough remains have been collected by institutions that are currently mis-identified, unavailable for study ect....At some point to be quite frank until the existing backlog it dealt with, handing over another specimen is catering to an attitude that has already quite disrespectfully handled remains of the deceased.

This becomes a culturally sensitive issue pretty fast. It should become an Ethical issue even faster. Everything was permitted in the name of science in the not so distant past. Today even as it's generally accepted that "we don't proceed that way anymore" can or will that be applied to BF remains? Some group will be proven wrong eventually in the debate whether Relic-Hominid or Great Ape. In the off chance it comes up Hominid do we just say OOPS? again?? After a carcass was treated like a lab-frog? We've either matured as a society or we haven't.

It would depend on the age of the skeleton of course. I imagine if one were found it would be rather recently deceased. In that case, it wouldn't go to a museum but become a John Doe until they figured out if it was or wasn't human. If the NA folks referred to them as Stick Indians then they obviously didn't see them as being the same as other NA tribes they were familiar with, I don't think they could claim it as an ancestor. So with that line of thinking, does this mean I can go to Germany or Israel and pitch a fit because they dug up my Neanderthal ancestors that I inherited that 4% from?

[Guest]

Hi Hairyman, yes that's all good, but what if one tribe is protective of them and under the auspices of them being seen as another 'tribe', they feel the protection is warranted? You obviously realize that some tribal groups will be more protective then others and they may see things differently then the US Goverment. (Not the first time)

From the Act."(9) "Native American" means of, or relating to, a tribe, people, or culture that is indigenous to the United States."

In other words, if they are Homo something and also 'Native', will that be enough? Could some tribes simply see the law differently then from your interpretation of it? How many tribes do you know of that consider them of a different Tribe or people?

Or, would a recognized tribe only need to claim 'Cultural Affiliation' to base a claim? Obviously Sasquatch are part of many tribe's culture. A particular tribes spiritual beliefs would seem to come to the center of this issue as well I would think. Would this element alone provide unexpected legal standing? It just seems like it may become a little more complicated when looking at it from the NA's point of view.

Dave

Edited March 22, 2011 by PragmaticTheorist

[Guest]

It would depend on the age of the skeleton of course. I imagine if one were found it would be rather recently deceased. In that case, it wouldn't go to a museum but become a John Doe until they figured out if it was or wasn't human. If the NA folks referred to them as Stick Indians then they obviously didn't see them as being the same as other NA tribes they were familiar with, I don't think they could claim it as an ancestor. So with that line of thinking, does this mean I can go to Germany or Israel and pitch a fit because they dug up my Neanderthal ancestors that I inherited that 4% from?

Actually Jodie I'd assist you in that endeveor! I was speaking in very broad terms, I wasn't assuming it might be a recently deceased BF. You brought up a very good example with the "Stick People", just because Native American, or First Nations people chose not to always interact with them does not negate that they recognised them as a distinct Nation/Peoples. One that was geographically at times in place occupying the land before they were.

[Hairy Man]

Tribes are protective of dinosaur bones, plants, etc., but that doesn't give them standing under NAGPRA to protect those resources. NAGPRA is designed for tribes to get back THEIR ancestors and very important sacred items directly associated with them. It is not designed to give any tribe the right to have all native remains returned or reburied. This ensures that the Chemehuevi don't claim Desert Mojave remains on purpose because they are enemies (please look at the implementing regulations for more detail). There has to be a cultural affiliation to make a claim and it must be very tight. If human and no cultural affiliation is made, it's called culturally unaffiliated and it just sits (I know because I have one). No case can be made under NAGPRA to have bones identified as bigfoot returned to a tribe and therefore not studied.

[gigantor]

That is why one should not involve the bureaucrats when such a discovery is made. Simply extract the find, keep your mouth shut and wait a suitable period of time before presenting it.

Do not reveal where you made the find except for very general terms like "North America".

[Guest]

Tribes are protective of dinosaur bones, plants, etc., but that doesn't give them standing under NAGPRA to protect those resources. NAGPRA is designed for tribes to get back THEIR ancestors and very important sacred items directly associated with them. It is not designed to give any tribe the right to have all native remains returned or reburied. This ensures that the Chemehuevi don't claim Desert Mojave remains on purpose because they are enemies (please look at the implementing regulations for more detail). There has to be a cultural affiliation to make a claim and it must be very tight. If human and no cultural affiliation is made, it's called culturally unaffiliated and it just sits (I know because I have one). No case can be made under NAGPRA to have bones identified as bigfoot returned to a tribe and therefore not studied.

NAGPRA is, however, instructive as to the types of shennanigans that various pressure groups can get up to and how some government agencies go right along with it.

I would also commend the case of the T-rex skelleton named "Sue", and the hijinks that went on with that case.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Mulder

[Hairy Man]

"Sue" had nothing to do with NAGPRA.

What shenanigans are you talking about? You mean the COE jumping the gun on a new law they didn't understand? Yeah, that happens, but it's not a new law anymore and most agencies have experts that deal solely with the issue. And besides, that is what the courts are for - they fix misinterpretations.

[Guest]

I can't believe it, my entire post just went into cyberspace. Will try to rewrite it after dinner...

[Guest]

OK, gonna try this again, but it won't be the same.

Hairyman, I do understand what you are saying, I really do.

BUT, how many times have you heard bigfoot called by names such as 'Elder Brother', 'The Old Ones', or sheesh, now I can't remember the third example I had. lol

I suspect how some interpret 'ancestor' or 'religious beliefs' may be tested here. You recall the NA storyteller at the OSS last year? She and I were talking afterwards about bigfoot being proven. Aside from much periphery, her end response was "when bigfoot is proven, the world will come to an end". What that signals to me is that there is a dormant protectiveness present that is not normally visible to the public.

Also, when you Hairyman hear other worldly stories told by tribal members, you don't always take them literally right? I mean, when they tell a story that includes something like 'it turned into a coyote' or 'I am guided by those who are no longer with us', you often interpret as non-literal or symbolic, right? But to the person saying it, such statements are often times meant with meaning you may not completely understand. (Boy I wish I had copied what I previously posted) In other words, many NA's REALLY do believe there is an invisible world around us. I suspect some would argue this as being integral to their religious belief system. So being much of the law IS based on their religious beliefs, an NA's interpretation of 'Ancestor' may very well mean something entirely different as in elder brother, then government experts may view them to be. This is partly what will be tested, because the spirit of the law may well favor their views in this sense.

Clearly this bigfoot mystery is not something that tribes speak completely openly about. Not even archeologists get to hear all the secrets. If remains were found, I'm guessing their protective nature will surface openly and rapidly and be unilateral. A sleeping giant would come to life if you will.

[Guest Crowlogic]

OK, gonna try this again, but it won't be the same.

Hairyman, I do understand what you are saying, I really do.

BUT, how many times have you heard bigfoot called by names such as 'Elder Brother', 'The Old Ones', or sheesh, now I can't remember the third example I had. lol

I suspect how some interpret 'ancestor' or 'religious beliefs' may be tested here. You recall the NA storyteller at the OSS last year? She and I were talking afterwards about bigfoot being proven. Aside from much periphery, her end response was "when bigfoot is proven, the world will come to an end". What that signals to me is that there is a dormant protectiveness present that is not normally visible to the public.

Also, when you Hairyman hear other worldly stories told by tribal members, you don't always take them literally right? I mean, when they tell a story that includes something like 'it turned into a coyote' or 'I am guided by those who are no longer with us', you often interpret as non-literal or symbolic, right? But to the person saying it, such statements are often times meant with meaning you may not completely understand. (Boy I wish I had copied what I previously posted) In other words, many NA's REALLY do believe there is an invisible world around us. I suspect some would argue this as being integral to their religious belief system. So being much of the law IS based on their religious beliefs, an NA's interpretation of 'Ancestor' may very well mean something entirely different as in elder brother, then government experts may view them to be. This is partly what will be tested, because the spirit of the law may well favor their views in this sense.

Clearly this bigfoot mystery is not something that tribes speak completely openly about. Not even archeologists get to hear all the secrets. If remains were found, I'm guessing their protective nature will surface openly and rapidly and be unilateral. A sleeping giant would come to life if you will.

In the early 90's had been my good fortune to have known a Cree teacher/shaman. We frequently talked for hours on end about nearly everything there is. But the one thing we never discussed was Sasquatch. If there was/is even a remote chance that the legend is true he of all people would have known of it. Sadly the subject never came up and he's since passed over.