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Possible Ramifications Of Finding A Skeleton?


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Guest vilnoori

Also consider what if Stick Indians, aka bigfoot, or little foot, maybe, are members of the Homo lineage, and any remains found tested out as human but an early branch, much as the Denisova woman. If it was from remains older than 50 years they certainly would go to whatever tribe had territory in the place the remains were found. Heck there might even be DNA evidence of partial relationship between the remains and NA people somewhere, much as Denisova woman was found to be related to Pacific Islanders, and Neanderthals to europeans, though in a tiny percentage.

It is fairly common for giants to be found in burial mounds, NA or otherwise...conjecture aside, chiefs got burial mounds, chiefs ate well and largeness made them good warriors, so there was a genetic pressure for them to be larger than others. Would anyone check to see if a large skeleton (humanoid) was actually related to the tribe around, genetically?

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That's an understatement PT. Back in the 60's an 70's the running joke on reservation/reserves was Anthro's "every family had one"!! LOL!! The other fun going on was that they were deliberately fed mis-information by families they worked with. The more annoying the Anthropologist, the more BS was spoon-fed to them. :D People got tired of answering question after question, then when presented with the published material discovering it had been altered from the original meaning.

You also brought up a very valid fact, in that the stories all have layers of meanings, the older you get, the more layers to a story you are capable of understanding. Native stories are at the minimum, comparable to something like Grimm's Fairy Tales. Only on a more complex level. Because this is not taught except at the college level as an elective most people read a Native story and are left with the mistaken impression it is a simplistic "quaint" tale.

I equally believe in the statement that once remains are found NA peoples will indeed take an interest. However I also am hesitant to "speak for them". If no one has any objections I will ask that they swing by to speak for themselves.

Thanks Grayjay, yes I am aware of some of the reasons for how events/stories have been retold. No question that the 'modern' interpreters would not understand some of what NA's hold close. The OLD WAYS still have much validity for those who have experienced unexplainable things too. I try to respect what they can't talk about, I also feel there will be a time though that some of these 'secrets' will need to be shared. Maybe 2112 will even set things in motion? I suppose any events will take place as they should.

Vilnoori, that is one scary story on that link. One lesson I sure will remember when I'm in the woods. If you hear children playing, run away! lol Heck, even the smiley half way down by seawallrunner sent chills down my spine. hehe That's also a smiley that BFF needs to get a copy of if its free-art.

Oh and I don't mind that these tangents are discussed because they are connected in one way or another.

Edited by PragmaticTheorist
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Heck, even the smiley half way down by seawallrunner sent chills down my spine. hehe

you mean this ?? eyes.gif

even if BFF doesnt have them, you can have it yourself...

I just right click on em, "save picture as" - onto desktop, then i upload to a photobucket account (free), in which i have many many emoticons like this one... I love em, collect em, and steal them wherever and whenever i have a chance..

As far as i know there's no license on them - unless its obviously stated near the image, so i assume its "ok" to take them...

Art

Edited by Art1972
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Mulder, Surely not! Why? I know of entire subdivisions built over Indian graves. There are also many ghost stories related to people who live on Indian burial grounds. No one has buried those homes, nor relocated the bodies under the houses, or removed the homes to another spot. You could not pay me to live in an Indian burial ground area.

But when science does not pay money to the NAs then all of a sudden they need and must have all of their artifacts returned?

They block research? Why? Surly BF is not sacred to them, is it? :(

Ok, my information is a bit out of date (this isn't something I've kept up with. Apparently things changed since last I heard. The NA claim ultimately was denied, and the remains returned to scientists for further study.

I can't find the reference to what happened to the site, but I remember reading back when all this was first going on that it was in fact buried under over a ton of "fill".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

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From day one (except when they were starving/needed help), white immigrants from Europe did nothing but look down upon the entire race of NA people as "savage", uneducated, pagan, and pretty much worthless.

I never denied this.

Of course other immigrant groups were mistreated as well... Irish and Italian immigrants werent treated much better than NA's, however they were at least entitled to the same opportunities as others, and had the benefit of at least coming from a similar culture (european, christian, white, etc), so they werent totally excluded (like slaves and NA's).

Your point?

It's not an argument about whether europeans should have gone back, given up land, and its not even an excuse or argument why they should have special rights today, and its certainly not about "making the white man evil".

Tell that to the NA nationalist hardcore.

It's about understanding an entire race of people's frustration, their (legitimate) feelings of betrayal when it came to dealing with the new whites who suddenly surrounded them on every side. Me personally, I actually could care less what they do today. It's up to them to decide what they want to do with their lives, and as bad as their treatment was, it doesnt justify any special treatment today- that's not what im getting at.

But that being said- it does not change their history and the history of how this nation swept them aside with a a mighty broom.

Seems to me that we're all well aware of that, so what is the problem from the NA perspective? How much self-flagellation do they want before they're satisfied? And what does that have to do with them walling themselves off on the Reservations and not joining the American family TODAY. We are not our great-great-however many times great grandfathers, and NAs today DO in fact enjoy many special privileges not granted to any other aggrieved minority group.

What I really dont understand is where you started off in your FIRST post in this thread.

The OP, mentioned Kennewick man, and you went off on a rant about how Native people were ticked off because it was a "caucasoid" skull,

Which they were.

and it got buried and hidden under a ton of dirt before anyone could look at it.. You've built your ENTIRE arugment off a FALSE premise...

No, I said the SITE was buried, and the remains returned for reburial (though the later turned out to be out of date informationO.

The remains became part of a 9 year legal battle, which the NA people LOST, and study of the remains continued. They were eventually classified as some sort (via Wikipedia) as ancient "Jomon", also related to the Ainu people of Japan.

As I indicated to Suzie above, I stand corrected on more recent events.

Since you were wrong about the outcome of Kennewick man- it actually just makes all your posts sound bitter...

The outcome of the case does not change the fact that the "modern" NA is the result of interbreeding of two distinct populations, the Asiatics who came from the West over the land bridge, and the Solutreans from Europe, who came across the ice flows.

as though you've got something against NA people or minorities...

I do not, except insofar as I am disappointed that NAs have refused to assimilate into the common culture like every other ethnic group prior to the rise of "identity" movements about a decade ago.

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Not that easy and not that much. I work in Cherokee and the casino there helps high school grads with college as well as paying the per cap twice a year. There are only about 500 full-blooded Cherokee left, I'm told, so most of the 15,000 or so registered members of the Eastern Band, at least, are some kind of mix. People have been kicked off the per cap for not having enough of a percentage of "Cherokee blood".

In the end, I fear this is what is going to wind up doing in NA culture...if you aren't "pure" enough, they don't count you and often push you away. That is not conducive to building a lasting community. Sooner or later they will have to accept and mingle with whites or they (and their cultures) will die out entirely.

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Admin

Let's get this thread back on track and steer clear of racial issues.

Please continue the discussion, relevant to the OT.

Your prompt attention is appreciated.

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Let's get this thread back on track and steer clear of racial issues.

Please continue the discussion, relevant to the OT.

Your prompt attention is appreciated.

whip.gif

hit.gif

point taken...

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OK, gonna try this again, but it won't be the same. :(

Hairyman, I do understand what you are saying, I really do.

BUT, how many times have you heard bigfoot called by names such as 'Elder Brother', 'The Old Ones', or sheesh, now I can't remember the third example I had. lol

I suspect how some interpret 'ancestor' or 'religious beliefs' may be tested here. You recall the NA storyteller at the OSS last year? She and I were talking afterwards about bigfoot being proven. Aside from much periphery, her end response was "when bigfoot is proven, the world will come to an end". What that signals to me is that there is a dormant protectiveness present that is not normally visible to the public.

Also, when you Hairyman hear other worldly stories told by tribal members, you don't always take them literally right? I mean, when they tell a story that includes something like 'it turned into a coyote' or 'I am guided by those who are no longer with us', you often interpret as non-literal or symbolic, right? But to the person saying it, such statements are often times meant with meaning you may not completely understand. (Boy I wish I had copied what I previously posted) In other words, many NA's REALLY do believe there is an invisible world around us. I suspect some would argue this as being integral to their religious belief system. So being much of the law IS based on their religious beliefs, an NA's interpretation of 'Ancestor' may very well mean something entirely different as in elder brother, then government experts may view them to be. This is partly what will be tested, because the spirit of the law may well favor their views in this sense.

Clearly this bigfoot mystery is not something that tribes speak completely openly about. Not even archeologists get to hear all the secrets. If remains were found, I'm guessing their protective nature will surface openly and rapidly and be unilateral. A sleeping giant would come to life if you will.

What could they do about it? If BF is discovered in woods here in Kentucky, can an Indian tribe take the skeleton away from science by claiming it belongs to them and their history?

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Dangit! Lost my post again. Sucks!

In short, I agree with you in that respect.

FGS, Please copy everything and anything *before* you post it here. I've had to start doing that. There are some problems that the admins are working on to fix.

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What could they do about it? If BF is discovered in woods here in Kentucky, can an Indian tribe take the skeleton away from science by claiming it belongs to them and their history?

In theory, yes.

FGS, Please copy everything and anything *before* you post it here. I've had to start doing that. There are some problems that the admins are working on to fix.

That's becoming my Standard Operating Procedure ANYWHERE I post...it isn't just this site that's acting up...

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Weird to think I'm one of the few that have heard a strange child sound in the woods.

I've heard it, and the description in the story you linked matches my experience beautifully. Mine was even after midnight on a clear, cold winter's night with snow on the ground! The difference? In my case, the moon was out and it was bright enough for me to eventually get a look at the "laughing children" that I had been hearing: it was a flock of Tundra Swans about 500' overhead.

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I've heard it, and the description in the story you linked matches my experience beautifully. Mine was even after midnight on a clear, cold winter's night with snow on the ground! The difference? In my case, the moon was out and it was bright enough for me to eventually get a look at the "laughing children" that I had been hearing: it was a flock of Tundra Swans about 500' overhead.

Thanks for this...we don't get Tundra geese, I'd of never have looked up. :)

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