Initial Dna Analysis Of Paracas Elongated Skull Released

[Guest DWA]

I think this is the problem a lot of us have with Ketchum.  How can we trust the science, when the presentation and the attention span is so suspect?

 

"OK, having no way to satisfy anyone on (1) what these samples came from or (2) what they represent, moving on now...."  I mean, that is the approach of the sideshow barker.

 

To see no problems with it is....?  Well, I can't see no problems with it.

[Guest]

"who in the @#$@ was the first person to decide that strapping a board to your child's head and applying a tourniquet was a good idea"

 

Probably the same guy that saw bleu cheese and thought 'hey, it's just a little bit of mold, I bet that tastes good!"

 

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation?o=2800&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com :

 

"However, other tribes, including the Choctaw,^[9]Chehalis, and Nooksack Indians, did practise head flattening by strapping the infant's head to a cradleboard." Cradleboards were a common practice in most parts of the nomadic world. When these cultures settled into towns they simply carried on the practice. Not all nomads used head-binding in their cradleboards which is probably why it is not a universal trait.

[Guest Llawgoch]

^^^Oh, stop describing what you're doing as what I'm doing!

 

I have been twiddling my thumbs 46  YEARS NOW!  waiting for a scientist skeptical about this topic to give me an opinion as to what the evidence represents that the garbageman couldn't give me (and produce as much evidence).

 

Until it's forthcoming...[ignore]

For one thing and only one:  that continual canard "give me one or two or five bits of evidence that you find convincing."

 

THAT IS NOT HOW SCIENCE WORKS!  You aren't one, right?  Science works on frequency and coherence.

 

The Patterson/Gimlin film is probably a sasquatch.  46 years of continual amassment of evidence - with nothing pointing away from authenticity - says so.

 

That massive pile of evidence that the mainstream isn't addressing backs Patty pretty much 100%.

 

Giving requested little bits and pieces to someone who constantly confuses evidence and proof gets the same tired old response:  that isn't proof.

 

Which is numbingly irrelevant.

 

 

Does it?  Who does?  I think John Napier pretty much nailed this one down when he pointed out shortly after the film was made that the centre of gravity of the supposed animal is just all wrong.  

 

You tell me which bits of the massive pile of evidence convince you it's a sasquatch.  Not just arm flailing and shouting "there's just so much of it".  A big pile of crap is still crap.  Which bits of the big pile convince you?  

 

And no, I'm not a scientist.  I never said I was, or claimed to have any special insights into science.  You are the one who continually does.  I , despite being an average layman, can see you are continually and constantly wrong about that,  regardless of whether Bigfoot exists or not.  I have no axe to grind on that, I don't believe it does, but I find it very interesting.  Your continual  claims that you know better  than everyone else in the world, however, are irritating in the extreme.  I just wish some people who do believe in Bigfoot would occasionally tell you how wrong you are, so you can't try to drag the argument back to whether it exists rather than addressing your claim that the evidence shows it exist.

 

And perhaps the scientist's opinion is th same as the garbageman's because the garbageman has enough scientific training to see an obvious alternative explanation for such evidence as exists  A perfectly valid and possible explanation.  It's all mistakes and lies.  I do not have to prove that, as I am not saying it IS the case, just that it is the most likely.  You have to show me something that cannot be a mistake or a lie.  The numbers don't come close to the tipping point on that.

I think this is the problem a lot of us have with Ketchum.  How can we trust the science, when the presentation and the attention span is so suspect?

 

"OK, having no way to satisfy anyone on (1) what these samples came from or (2) what they represent, moving on now...."  I mean, that is the approach of the sideshow barker.

 

To see no problems with it is....?  Well, I can't see no problems with it.

 

You can't trust the science because you don't understand it.  All those people who do, have said it's nonsense.  That's the problem with it.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Llawgoch

[Oonjerah]

April Holloway - Ancient Origins Interview with Brien Foerster

Unravelling the Genetics of Elongated Skulls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qsj5QyB1bk

 

6:15 minutes ... 2,000 years of degeneration of the material ... 

6:35 Lloyd Pye's analogy is ... ancient DNA is shattered ... only recent extremely

sophisticated DNA equipment can ... put the tiny segments back together. 

7:45 minutes: segments ... of unknown human haplotype.

8:40 - talks about why he cannot identify their 1st geneticist.

16:20 - their 2nd geneticist is Melba Ketchum. 

[WSA]

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation?o=2800&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com :

 

"However, other tribes, including the Choctaw,^[9]Chehalis, and Nooksack Indians, did practise head flattening by strapping the infant's head to a cradleboard." Cradleboards were a common practice in most parts of the nomadic world. When these cultures settled into towns they simply carried on the practice. Not all nomads used head-binding in their cradleboards which is probably why it is not a universal trait.

Well, yeah, of course, but....my interest is mainly WHY this became a stylized concept of beauty or attractiveness?  Where and why did it originate?  These recent findings may trace that idea back to trying to emulate the cranial shape of  a more ancient race. If not, you are just left with the theory of ancient people just concluding that a pointy skull looked, well....cool.  

[Guest]

^yup that's all anyone needs. People do stuff they think is cool all the time. Tattoos, piercings, handlebar mustaches. If every woman in a tribe strapped her child's head just to keep the kids' heads up, then everyone in the tribe would look the same. They would look different from other tribes that did not do this. That all by itself is reason enough for many people to institute head binding really. But just because they thought it was cool would be equally good enough to explain it. No one needs an alien to inspire the look or keep it going.

[WSA]

No, not saying alien.

 

I'd buy the "just a cool look" argument except for this fact, which takes it outside all the other examples: Apparently there did exist a race of humans with this congentially shaped head. That fact raises the distinct possiblity it was imitation, not mere fashion.

[Oonjerah]

Natural Science in Archaeology 2009, pp 159-172

Who Were the Nasca? Population Dynamics in Pre-Columbian Southern 

Peru Revealed by Ancient DNA Analyses

by Lars Fehren-Schmitz, Susanne Hummel, Bernd Herrmann

 

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-87438-6_10

 

Abstract: 

 

Through the analysis of ancient DNA from human mortal remains it is 

possible to gain access to a biohistoric archive containing relevant 

information about the structure of prehistoric populations. The data 

obtained help to answer questions related to migration processes and 

population relationships that could not be answered by the methods 

of cultural science alone. The aim of this study was to show to what 

extent the cultural evolution of the southern Peruvian Palpa area was 

accompanied by processes of population exchange. Bone and tooth

samples of over 200 individuals from prehistoric burial grounds from

southern Peru were collected and examined with the methods of ancient

DNA analysis. The study focuses on the matrilineal population dynamics

by the analysis of mitochondrial genetic markers. Mitochondrial haplogroups

and types could be successfully determined for over 100 individuals from

different archaeological periods. The obtained data were compared with

mitochondrial data from recent Native American populations. The results

allow us to describe to what extent cultural changes were influenced by

allochthonous contributions to the gene pool and how changes in the

socioecological complexity of the cultures affected the genetic composition

of the Palpa valley population. Also, a significant differentiation of ancient

coastal and highland populations in southern Peru is detectable as are

changes in the mitochondrial haplogroup distribution patterns as a result

of the emergence of the extensive highland empires in later South American 

prehistory. 

 

===========================================

 

My interpretation: Ancient Paracans were a haplogroup 

genetically distinct from present day Peruvians. 

[Guest]

No, not saying alien.

 

I'd buy the "just a cool look" argument except for this fact, which takes it outside all the other examples: Apparently there did exist a race of humans with this congentially shaped head. That fact raises the distinct possiblity it was imitation, not mere fashion.

Fact? I am not familiar with any factual remains of people with such heads not caused by binding. A true population like that would definitely be interesting to me as I study evolution as a hobby. This would be a cool evolutionary twist but I have never seen this. Could you cite a reference?

[hiflier]

Hello artfoot,

 

I foresee that we could have some nice talks regarding Cro-Magnon's origins and subsequent introduction onto the western European continent. Might have some things to run by you. PM me if you wish.

Edited February 15, 2014 by hiflier

[southernyahoo]

 

Natural Science in Archaeology 2009, pp 159-172

Who Were the Nasca? Population Dynamics in Pre-Columbian Southern 

Peru Revealed by Ancient DNA Analyses

by Lars Fehren-Schmitz, Susanne Hummel, Bernd Herrmann

 

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-87438-6_10

 

Abstract: 

 

Through the analysis of ancient DNA from human mortal remains it is 

possible to gain access to a biohistoric archive containing relevant 

information about the structure of prehistoric populations. The data 

obtained help to answer questions related to migration processes and 

population relationships that could not be answered by the methods 

of cultural science alone. The aim of this study was to show to what 

extent the cultural evolution of the southern Peruvian Palpa area was 

accompanied by processes of population exchange. Bone and tooth

samples of over 200 individuals from prehistoric burial grounds from

southern Peru were collected and examined with the methods of ancient

DNA analysis. The study focuses on the matrilineal population dynamics

by the analysis of mitochondrial genetic markers. Mitochondrial haplogroups

and types could be successfully determined for over 100 individuals from

different archaeological periods. The obtained data were compared with

mitochondrial data from recent Native American populations. The results

allow us to describe to what extent cultural changes were influenced by

allochthonous contributions to the gene pool and how changes in the

socioecological complexity of the cultures affected the genetic composition

of the Palpa valley population. Also, a significant differentiation of ancient

coastal and highland populations in southern Peru is detectable as are

changes in the mitochondrial haplogroup distribution patterns as a result

of the emergence of the extensive highland empires in later South American 

prehistory. 

 

===========================================

 

My interpretation: Ancient Paracans were a haplogroup 

genetically distinct from present day Peruvians. 

 

 

Also, a significant differentiation of ancient coastal and highland populations in southern Peru is detectable as are changes in the mitochondrial haplogroup distribution patterns as a result of the emergence of the extensive highland empires in later South American prehistory.

 

 

It does seem to at least suggest that the people of the highland empires had some effect on the gene pool, and were distinct genetically. It still doesn't address the unique skulls themselves. Foerster says there are around 40 of them now. 

[Guest]

Ketchum was sent some stuff to test but has not finished yet.  You know she's famous for that. She and Brien have confirmed that she is not the one who did the testing that got the results that we are discusssing.

 

Thanks Chelefoot but just the fact that they asked her to participate screams moneygrabinhoax to me.  If they wanted their study to be taken seriously why would they involve her?  Are there that few DNA labs in the world? 

 

I'm guessing they got her onboard for her special skills, think "Oceans eleven" or "The Sting".

[Oonjerah]

Well, yeah, of course, but....my interest is mainly WHY this became a stylized concept of beauty or attractiveness?  Where and why did it originate?  These recent findings may trace that idea back to trying to emulate the cranial shape of  a more ancient race. If not, you are just left with the theory of ancient people just concluding that a pointy skull looked, well....cool.  

 

The Enigma of Cranial Deformation: Elongated Skulls of the Ancients 

by D.H. Childress & B. Foerster 

 

If that book becomes popular, will it bring back the beehive hairdo? ... what an unpleasant thought! 

 

@WSA.  Julio Tello was fascinated with the question of why the ancients practiced 

skull deformation to such a great extent.  If not for beauty or status, did they believe 

it was healthier? He wrote his (1st) college thesis on the topic. 

[Oonjerah]

Project Avalon, 15 Jan 2013

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?50559-Elongated-skulls-from-the-Paracus-culture-of-Peru&p=616731&viewfull=1#post616731

 

"Re: Elongated skulls from the Paracus culture of Peru

"Greetings all.

"The head of our genetics study, who wished to remain anonymous until now, is Dr. Melba Ketchum."

 

Oonjerah: OK. Dr. Ketchum was their head geneticist a year ago. But she's not now. 

But she's still working on the project? ... What? 

 

Bigger What?: In current interviews, doesn't Foerster speak of the DNA results as preliminary findings?

Yet his book: The Enigma of Cranial Deformation: Elongated Skulls of the Ancients, coauthored with

D.H. Childress was published Feb 2012 according to Amazon. 

 

Nevermind what I'm thinking. 

[southernyahoo]

It's simple, Foerster and Childress have long been interested in the skulls. Ketchum is just one who would either do the testing or arrange for it to be done by another geneticist because she loves a mystery. So she becomes the head of the genetic study. Any geneticist could step up and play a role in the project, or do an independent study.