Let's Do Some Math...

[roguefooter]

No one said they discarded them.

 

But avid establishment defenders with strong opinions like yourself,  are just what the Smithsonian counts on.

 

I'll defer to JDL and Aaron on this subject. As they've done much more research on this topic than I have.

 

It's not my opinion. All I'm doing is relaying the conspiracy theories, which discarding the bones is a popular theory. All one needs to do is a simple Google search on the Smithsonian discarding bones.

 

"Here are a couple of old quotations that indicate why it would have been quite possible, in the days before widespread Bigfoot reports, for supposed bones of “giants†or “big Indians†to get discarded upon arrival at a museum, or tossed out in the spring cleaning."

 

http://www.bigfootresearch.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=157

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That.

 

Additionally, it's not a conspiracy if they come right out and say it.  It's denial to say they didn't/don't do it.

 

The conspiracy is when people start adding secretive elements of super giants and Bigfoot. Like I said previously the Smithsonian is far from any kind of MIB organization, and they certainly don't shy from being controversial.

Edited April 11, 2014 by roguefooter

[JDL]

Let's put this back into perspective here. None of that points to any conspiracy to hide Bigfoot bones, it also doesn't point to any super giant bones ever being found or even existing.

 

What we have going on here is called 'apophenia'. People trying to create a meaningful pattern out of completely unrelated information, molding it into a beneficial explanation to support the legend of Bigfoot. That seems to be a common theme with this field.

 

Well, I can say first hand that BLM has in its possession three large skeletons.  See them on display anywhere?  They were on display before BLM confiscated them.

 

It's not my opinion. All I'm doing is relaying the conspiracy theories, which discarding the bones is a popular theory. All one needs to do is a simple Google search on the Smithsonian discarding bones.

 

"Here are a couple of old quotations that indicate why it would have been quite possible, in the days before widespread Bigfoot reports, for supposed bones of “giants†or “big Indians†to get discarded upon arrival at a museum, or tossed out in the spring cleaning."

 

http://www.bigfootresearch.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=157

 

The Smithsonian's policy is not a matter of conspiracy theory.  It is a matter of record.  Thomas Powell, the first Director of the Smithsonian's Bureau of Ethnology objected to any interpretation of anthropological finds in the US that elevated Native Americans beyond the most primitive interpretation.  He suppressed the findings of researchers that he defined as "unwise", and discouraged continued research into the mound building culture.

 

I repeat, not a matter of conspiracy, a matter of record.

 

There were four reasons he did this:

 

To support Manifest Destiny, the right of European immigrants to take possession of the entire continent.

To manage public perception of Native Americans as "less than", to minimize objection to their relocation.

To suppress any evidence of pre-Columbian contact between Native Americans and "People of Antiquity"

To prevent any evidence of pre-Columbian contact from being used to support a growing faith in the West whose prime tenet was based on pre-Columbian contact with a "person" of antiquity.

[roguefooter]

^Again, I said the conspiracy starts when people add secretive elements of super giants, Bigfoot, and the cover up/discarding of those bones for various reasons.

 

As you can see people like to take elements and then correlate them into the Bigfoot legend where there is NO connection.

 

 

Well, I can say first hand that BLM has in its possession three large skeletons.  See them on display anywhere?  They were on display before BLM confiscated them.

 

Are you assuming that these skeletons are Bigfoot? Are they beyond human range in size? Assuming that they are not on display because of some cover up?

 

This is how conspiracy theories are born. What are the facts outside of the assumptions?

Edited April 11, 2014 by roguefooter

[Guest]

Coonbo, I agree with you but may even take it to the extreme.  I personally think the bigs number in the millions.  There are billions of acres out there both private and public acreage.  Surely they number in the millions.   Even if you took a total sightings number and divided it by the random chance that you'd see a bigfoot 1-2 % at best, you'd end up in the millions.   For example, total unique sightings of 20,000/.02 = 1 MM  I think 2% chance is pretty darn high.  

 

Hi Alex MW.

 

Sorry, but I'm going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on that statement. Sasquatches are likely extremely rare, and don't have a very dense population count. That being said, theres probably around 5,000 or more, possibly.

 

Additionally, after reading through a lot of the rebuttals that have been presented in this thread, all I can do is sigh. All I hear is the same rehashed arguments. Listen, we know there are a lack of bones, we know the ratios don't seem to add up very well, we know all of the rebuttal arguments and are trying to answer them to the best of our ability. 

 

I think I speak for all of us out there when I say this: I'm willing to stand on Judgement Day and swear to the ends of the stars that I saw a "Bigfoot" as they are called, a real biological creature, and I have no way of proving that, just my sighting. Willing to take a lie detector test, anything that works. All I'm trying to do is do legitimate studies and ways of answering the "debunkers" to the best of my knowledge. Sure, we don't have all the answers to some very complex questions, but we will in time, that I know for certain, because these things are 100% real. No UFO conspiracies, no aliens, nothing of woo. A real, normal, and surviving ape/relict human that has perplexed society for hundreds of years.

[roguefooter]

^When you create a thread literally provoking the opposition by saying "I don't want to hear these arguments ever again.." like it's supposed to be the last word, well you're going to get an opposing reaction. Poke a bear with a stick and he's going to poke you back even harder. You sigh, you complain about rehashed arguments, and you act like these arguments were spurred on by the opposition. Nope.

 

Any talk about existence and numbers will get an opposing viewpoint in regards to non-existence and it's supporting numbers. That's how debate works- it's a two way street.

Edited April 11, 2014 by roguefooter

[Guest Stan Norton]

What you shoul be wondering is why indigenous people that lived in and new their forest reported the same thing, as well as early explorers. You a diverse group saying the same thing and the law of large numbers very much points to the statistical validity. I do enjoy the discussion though guys

 

I actually think that the wealth of detail within indigenous traditions is one of the most compelling aspects of the sasquatch phenomenon. I just happen to think that they are not some lost tribe of Israel that can speak several Indo-European tongues (presumably tribes from the Levant should converse in a Semitic language?).

Those demanding better evidence could go out and try to provide some themselves right ? BTW if your looking for better evidence presented to make the case , try attending our 3rd annual Oklahoma Bigfoot Symposium. That's where "Better" evidence will be presented.

 A little tricky to do field research on sasquatch in Britain but I do try to keep abreast of the latest 'research'. I do however consider it entirely valid for someone who is a professional ecologist and sasquatch enthusiast to critique statements which suggest that there are several million sasquatch in the US and that they speak several different tongues. With no attempt at any empirical evidence to back it up. Anyone interested in this field must surely see that it is the very absence of anything resembling a scientific approach which is the biggest fail of this whole thing over many decades.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Stan Norton
Removed religious and flaming material

[Guest Alex MW]

@Austin   When you respectfully disagree (which is fine) ... what are you basing your extremely rare sasquatch statement on?  I always love to ask people these questions when they make blanket conceptual statements.  I base my statement on thousands of hours in the woods, recordings that would substantiate the presence of a sasquatch based on the quintessential activity and audio, in many of the same areas having had class A's and finally substantiating all that stuff with track evidence.  So, back to you, what do you base the ultimate rare 5000 number on when we probably have at least 10,000 to 20,000 eye witness accounts.  Have we spotted them all 3 or 4 different times?  Have I incredibly spotted 2-3% in my short tenure doing this stuff...wish I could hit the lotto like that.   Not being disrespectful but I always ask folks to think through their logic and whether it's based on someone else's "I think" (e.g. Meldrum, John Greene) logic or facts and experience. 

 

@Stan  No idea about that Lost Tribe thing...just interesting read about some of the hebrew language ties.   The indigenous people knew their stuff in the wild.  They were the masters out there.  Most all of them claim to have lived alongside the bigs.  They just all differed in their "perception" of what the bigs were.  

[AaronD]

Interesting topic, folks! All possibilities are worthy of consideration--until we have proof otherwise. IMO, 5000 is a sparse population if spread out over the thousands of square miles of wilderness where man (we) generally are not present. Of course, a small population doesn't mean one person can't have multiple sightings either. Heck, if there was only 10 squatches in the whole USA but one lived near me I might see him/her repeatedly (lucky me). Then you might have 500 lumber jacks or other woodsy folks who never see a one. Just sayin....

[Guest LarryP]

 

This is how conspiracy theories are born. What are the facts outside of the assumptions?

 

JDL has already given you the "facts", but you continue to ignore them.

 

That's what's known as "Perpetual denial of evidence".

 

Since you're so convinced that this is nothing more than a conspiracy theory, file a FOIA asking the Smithsonian to reveal what they've done with the bones and see where that gets you.

[Guest]

A little tricky to do field research on sasquatch in Britain but I do try to keep abreast of the latest 'research'. I do however consider it entirely valid for someone who is a professional ecologist and sasquatch enthusiast to critique statements which suggest that there are several million sasquatch in the US and that they speak several different tongues. With no attempt at any empirical evidence to back it up. Anyone interested in this field must surely see that it is the very absence of anything resembling a scientific approach which is the biggest fail of this whole thing over many decades.

 

You could try some poking around and do some overnight audio recordings around the Cannock Chase Forest or the famous bridge area on the Shropshire Union Canal where the ole "Man Monkey" reports came from. Just in fun but with even as silly as it it sounds Bigfoot style reports from areas like that over different decades why not it seems to be a very scenic area anyway and I doubt anyone has even tried to do that. get off the trail and look for tree manipulations or alternate game trails with high head clearance. We have members in Scotland and England as well as Australia and New Zealand so you are not alone in your situation.  We had a member in England a few years ago report that he had caught wind of some BF sounding activity SE of London towards the coast who knows? Seems the rugged Scottish Highlands may work pretty much everything North of Glasgow and Perth could be a viable area to research as well. I think there are old legends of Wildman like creatures from up there.

 

I dont think any professional ecologist has been approached with Alex MW opinion of possibly 1 million BF thats just his thoughts and no more or less viable than my own thoughts of tens of thousands which is just to say I find 5000 estimate to just be a bit too low IMO. I am no degreed scientist or professional person in biology rather this is just my fun hobby for me my opinion is just only that.  There are more scientific approaches going on than you think just because its not presented to you here on this venue doesnt mean it isnt being done. My best chance of acceptable proof to others would only be finding complete remains or somehow catching a live juvinile without endangering myself or fellow researchers and that seems totally ridiculous to consider so if the evidence becomes available to me I will try to get it but then let me say this... say I invest in the cool HD video glasses and wear those when I am out and have a decent close encounter, the resulting video evidence is so likely to be poo pooed that it will be no better than just my own word of my experiences so therefore whats the point?

[JDL]

^Again, I said the conspiracy starts when people add secretive elements of super giants, Bigfoot, and the cover up/discarding of those bones for various reasons.

 

As you can see people like to take elements and then correlate them into the Bigfoot legend where there is NO connection.

 

 

 

Are you assuming that these skeletons are Bigfoot? Are they beyond human range in size? Assuming that they are not on display because of some cover up?

 

This is how conspiracy theories are born. What are the facts outside of the assumptions?

 

You don't really read other people's posts entirely, do you?  I've already provided you with facts, not assumptions.

 

This makes it very difficult to have a logical dialogue with you when you rant about something, I reply with more than sufficient factual information to counter your argument, and you come back ranting as if you've only read, or perhaps understood, half of the information provided to you.  I'll make one last attempt by repeating the information I have previously provided.  If you persist in not reading it fully, then I see no further point in dialoguing with you.

 

The three mummified skeletons were discovered in a cave near Walker Lake, Nevada by guano miners about the same time as the mummified skeletons from Lovelock Cave were discovered.  Based on the artifacts found with them, they were from the same race of people that occupied Lovelock Cave, referred to by the Paiutes as Si-Teh-Cah.  The three skeletons were placed on display at the Mark Twain Museum in Virginia City, Nevada for decades.  The display consisted of a male skeleton, well over seven feet tall, a female skeleton seven feet tall, and a juvenile skeleton in the same mummified state, but under six feet tall.  Keep in mind that this is two feet taller than the contemporary Paiutes.  There were atlatls and atlatl darts displayed with them, as well as other artifacts including woven partially decayed woven baskets, etc.  They had decayed clothing consisting of coarsely woven plant fiber.  There was still hair attached to the remaining skin, not just on their heads, but also on their arms and shoulders, where it was about two inches in length.  The hair was red, as it was with the Lovelock Cave remains.

 

I personally viewed the remains several times between 1969 and 1978.  In 1991, I visited the Museum and they were gone and I assumed that they had been repatriated by the Paiutes.  In 2011 I decided to try and track them down.  I visited the Museum in Virginia City and the Nevada Historical Society adjacent the the UNR campus.  I finally learned that the remains were not repatriated by the Paiutes (the Paiutes are adamant that the remains are from the race of cannibals with whom they warred and eventually wiped out).  The big revelation was that it was BLM who took the skeletons.

 

I do not believe that the remains are bigfoot remains, but they do appear to be from the same race of people whose remains are reported from different areas the country.  These people continued to use atlatls long after all other tribes were using bows, which makes sense because their longer arms would have provided greater power and range with atlatls than the bows used by shorter peoples.  Also a large bow, sized to them, crafted from the same materials used by other tribes would not have withstood the force of a longer and stronger pull.  Si-Teh-Cah, by the way, means stick thrower people.  This is consistent with the use of atlatls.

 

So, in a nutshell.

 

Remains of three large individuals from an uncatalogued race of people two feet taller, on the average (males between seven and eight feet), than the contemporary natives were on display.

The government got hold of them.

They are no longer available to the public.

@Stan  No idea about that Lost Tribe thing...just interesting read about some of the hebrew language ties.   The indigenous people knew their stuff in the wild.  They were the masters out there.  Most all of them claim to have lived alongside the bigs.  They just all differed in their "perception" of what the bigs were.  

 

This is exactly what Thomas Powell, the first Director or the Smithsonian's Bureau of Ethnology, was trying to suppress.  The "unwise", as he called it, use of the anthropological information acquired by researchers at the time included links to what Powell referred to as "tribes of antiquity" from the Old World.  If this information became widely accepted it would have threatened Manifest Destiny.  He was worried that the public may begin to view some of the native peoples as descendants of European tribes mentioned in the Old Testament and that this would bolster the theological assertions of the people settling Utah at the time, with whom the government was at odds.

[Guest]

JDL- thanks for the great post and putting all in perspective for BFF. Oh my isn't it something when you dig into facts and the real history is revealed; plussed you big time.

[Guest Stan Norton]

Gearman,

Please take it from me that there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of there being an undocumented hominoid in the British isles. Seriously. Don't even go there! Anyone telling you any different is pulling your leg big time. The fauna of the British isles is very well documented and studied...for example, my job is to procure and critique ecological survey reports, including detailed bat and nocturnal bird survey works, as well as undertaking the same in some pretty remote locations. Not once have I seen or heard of anything even remotely sasquatch like! The notion is lunacy.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Stan Norton

[Cotter]

Don't you guys have witch sightings in the UK?  Complete with broomstick flying n all?

[Guest]

Gearman,

Please take it from me that there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of there being an undocumented hominoid in the British isles. Seriously. Don't even go there! Anyone telling you any different is pulling your leg big time. The fauna of the British isles is very well documented and studied...for example, my job is to procure and critique ecological survey reports, including detailed bat and nocturnal bird survey works, as well as undertaking the same in some pretty remote locations. Not once have I seen or heard of anything even remotely sasquatch like! The notion is lunacy.

 

Trust me I don't I don't really think there is something therenow  just some stories that are interesting like maybe there was in years past, its just fun to open your mind and leave your comfort zone just for the thought of it. But yes I understand how bad it sounds but I am not crazy. On another note it can't be too terribly expensive to travel to nearby Skandinavia areas to explore is it?  The reason I mention audio is you can covertly drop off something small and pick it up later and review to now ones elses knowledge and your own embarrasment of saying what your doing ( I use term wildlife survey) and what you record can be quite entertaining when the hidden mic is on all night.

Don't you guys have witch sightings in the UK?  Complete with broomstick flying n all?

 

They have a brewery like that Wychwood or some such with HobGoblin and Witch ales

Edited April 11, 2014 by GEARMAN