norseman Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I certainly do not agree that any sort "conclusion" to the legalities about property leases or a firearm discharge on private property can be made while banging on a keyboard. That's between the NAWAC and the property owner or the local authorities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stan Norton Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Firstly, the whole firearms thing is not my bag. I haven't a clue what any of it means and couldn't give a toss anyway: in my very free country we have very few guns and we are much better off for it imho. I don't see that NAWAC activities are anyone's business whatsoever: they are on private property, clearly have the express permission of the landowner, have not been run out of town for nearly killing somebody's nephew and, from what I can see, appear to be perfectly rational, intelligent people. That they have not in a decade found anything definitive in terms of evidence is an issue, I fully concur. However, having not been there, having not one shred of personal experience of the Ouachitas, I don't see how I am in the least bit qualified to judge what should or shouldn't have happened by now. Few here are. My personal experience as a field ecologist of 15 years standing is that nothing would surprise me, even here in the UK where we have no wilderness and have highly altered ecosystems. I am routinely surprised by new discoveries, even within the highly modified landscapes I work in. For an intelligent primate to elude some guys for a few years in a true forest ecosystem? No problem with that. Edited July 13, 2014 by Stan Norton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stan Norton Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 It's everybody's business as long as they continue to post about the 10+ years ongoing investigation on a 10 acre property with no proof (photo, video, DNA etc) whether it is posted here, on Facebook, or even on their website. How long would it take you to professionally investigate a 10 acre property for evidence of a troop of wood apes? How many clients would continue to pay you after 10 years of searching their 660'x660' property with no definitive results? You do this professionally correct? Actually, it really is nobody's business: it so really isn't. Do you know X is exactly ten acres? Do you? How? Heard it on the forum? I've never been there so I have no clue. Not sure what difference the size of the study area makes anyway. Ten acres is still a sizeable area, particularly in a dense woodland ecosystem. Why would any wood apes restrict themselves to a human construct? Do they resist stepping over the line? No. I don't honestly give a monkey's anyways. I will continue to get my fix of X and it's no skin off my nose if they succeed or not. Good luck to em in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuchi1 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Stan. While I certainly understand your position on civilian firearm ownership, please remember that in the USA, (in the legal sense) people are citizens of the Republic whilst people in the U.K. are subjects of the Crown. At least, that is how the Right Honorable, John Major explained it when making a presentation to the Tulsa Business League back in 1998. BTW, he was very well received and definitely a quality person however, after learning the distinctions between many of the laws/structure of our two countries, it became apparent as to why some of my ancestors left Wales and Scotland, 405 & 339 years ago, respectively. Also, IMO, anyone going afield and carrying instruments of lethal force would be well advised to acquaint themselves with what (legally) constitutes misdemeanor, Reckless Endangerment with a Firearm as well as what elevates said to felony status. The referenced link* should render an idea of how tha various states' treat such actions. When going through the CLEET portion of my CWL training, these items were mentioned (with emphasis) along with the fact that simply pointing a weapon (loaded or unloaded) at another person (in Oklahoma) outside the parameters of CWL authority, is a felony. This is not meant to sound alarmist or accusatory however, once you pull the trigger, there is no calling back of that round going downrange. * http://www.tncrimlaw.com/TPI_Crim/06_03.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David NC Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Yuchi , You have a great way of playing words and reconstructing the same posts in order to call them a unique new question. I am not pro-kill outside self defense, but your agenda is crystal clear to everyone here. For one that range of a slug is in vacuum or flat desert environment ( conveniently left that out huh) a slug would not travel very far if , it hits a tree (thousands of them on the property) it hits the ground ie; shooting from a stand or elevated position or if they have a bank behind the target. Secondly NAWAC has already stated if the subject turns out to be closer to human than ape they are ready for the consiquences. They can not be charged for murder or really any other charge for shooting an unclassified species because they are not recognized so there are NO LAWS in place right now protecting them (something that can change very quickly when NAWAC succeeds. As to the gun rules , you just went on a recent rant about drug cartels in the region, LOL you just gave them their justifiable out when and if they get checked on the private property for carrying very large and semi-auto weapons. It goes like this " Officer these weapons are for our protection, we have seen on the news media lately were the dangerous cartels are working the woods and forests here and we want to make sure we do not fall victim to them while we are conducting our field research here". In conclusion , I am not the OP but in my opinion that would be harassment. Edited July 14, 2014 by AaronD removed directive to another member 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottv Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Norseman, how do you decide on which areas or regions for your patrols and what is the methodology you use? Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the parkie Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Firstly, the whole firearms thing is not my bag. I haven't a clue what any of it means and couldn't give a toss anyway: in my very free country we have very few guns and we are much better off for it imho. I don't see that NAWAC activities are anyone's business whatsoever: they are on private property, clearly have the express permission of the landowner, have not been run out of town for nearly killing somebody's nephew and, from what I can see, appear to be perfectly rational, intelligent people. That they have not in a decade found anything definitive in terms of evidence is an issue, I fully concur. However, having not been there, having not one shred of personal experience of the Ouachitas, I don't see how I am in the least bit qualified to judge what should or shouldn't have happened by now. Few here are. My personal experience as a field ecologist of 15 years* is that nothing would surprise me, even here in the UK where we have no wilderness and have highly altered ecosystems. I am routinely surprised by new discoveries, even within the highly modified landscapes I work in. For an intelligent primate to elude some guys for a few years in a true forest ecosystem? No problem with that. *with some archeological experience Edited July 13, 2014 by the parkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slabdog Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 The recent activity on this thread is a prime example of why I am adamantly pro-harvest and why I sincerely hope that the NAWAC's shooters are proficient and train often under the conditions that they will shoot. (Back to lurk mode) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Norseman, how do you decide on which areas or regions for your patrols and what is the methodology you use? Just wondering. First of all, as a grass roots organization we rely on every day joes like you or me willing to expend time and energy. More importantly we have a support group that crunches the numbers and gives us the best areas to do patrols in based on the individual's radius. We don't have an area x. Project Grendel is a giant experiment working on a trial and error basis working towards a type specimen. But we support and promote the pro kill mindset, any where, and anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuchi1 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 David NC, The terrain of the area in question has a ~35 degree vertical drop to the south that starts ~100 yards from the Branson south line and a similar drop begins ~350 yards to the north. It is entirely possible that a slug could be looped out to drop onto property hundreds of yards away. Attached are a couple of links you (and, possibly NAWAC's "shooters") may find helpful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNTyCcip-ks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrwUxYwhJvE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottv Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Understood Noresman, you guys are on your own dime and that makes it much harder. So your areas have to be close to home. Do you then choose your search sights based on previous sightings or habitat quality? Once you decide on an area how do you survey or sample it? Do you use tape recordings, visual searches for the animals themselves or search terrain for sign? sorry for all of the questions, just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I have horses and I ride logging roads and trails looking for sign in "good" areas. In winter I have a tracked ranger. Sometimes I break out the jet boat to survey shore line. I've also employed bear hunting strategy. Using a mouth call over a foam fawn. Along with others predator callers as well as elk and deer and turkey calls. Anything that puts you on the menu. This spring I found a big patch of skunk cabbage and I cased that for about a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I certainly do not agree that any sort "conclusion" to the legalities about property leases or a firearm discharge on private property can be made while banging on a keyboard. That's between the NAWAC and the property owner or the local authorities. I disagree, I would say that you need to add 'concerned neighbors' to that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Do you have proof of that? Or is it just more of your conjecture? Maybe they all shoot on weekends and caravan to the NRA convention together yearly? That's IF there are truly any neighbors around at all. Got a long/lat coord I can plug into google earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 For one that range of a slug is in vacuum or flat desert environment ( conveniently left that out huh) a slug would not travel very far if , it hits a tree (thousands of them on the property) it hits the ground ie; shooting from a stand or elevated position or if they have a bank behind the target. I guess you don't realize how small a 10 acre plot is. We would restrict our deer hunting to Bow and Arrow when we had 10 acres or less. The bottom or rectangular 10 acre plot is what most of the parcels are here in Michigan. I don't know what they have there in Oklahoma, either way, the property border is well within the range of any shotgun. I would hope that they maintain strict firearm discipline when out hunting the apes. Do you have proof of that? Or is it just more of your conjecture? Maybe they all shoot on weekends and caravan to the NRA convention together yearly? That's IF there are truly any neighbors around at all. Got a long/lat coord I can plug into google earth? Yuchi1 just told us that he is a leaseholder on the next parcel over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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