WSA Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Crowlogic...you want meaning? It is there for you to find. It is not something that sends you a certified letter and a request to appear though. The disjointed nature of the evidence is not the fault of those who have collected it, or of those who have spent considerable effort in pointing out the underlying coherence to those of your nature who could not, or just would not see it. Don't blame the evidence itself either. If it were any other scientific discovery we were talking about, well, we wouldn't be talking about it probably!
Guest Crowlogic Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) To sum up for those who have inquired about my stand on bigfoot here it is. In spite of the PGF being a compelling mystery a one off mystery is too precarious to invest belief in. The PGF is to bigfoot as the Trent photos are to UFO's. The idea of bigfoot becoming extinct allows the PGF a place in potential fact. Potential is just that potential and not substance. However when the subject of bigfoot/apes surviving in severe winter conditions while maintaining the usual secrecy I had to conclude that there was a very good reason for apes not coming to North America when the opportunity presented itself during the last Ice Age. Apes don't like the cold and please if you can furnish a sub freezing cold dwelling ape anywhere please do so. That pretty much puts the last nail in my bigfoot coffin. As for the evidence it has a 100% proven track record of not supplying the so called creature that is leaving the evidence. 100% failure rate is a telling argument for non existence. The evidence and speculation about what left said evidence is tantamount to the old argument of how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. Without angles the argument is meaningless. Furthermore the existence of pin heads for said angles to dance on does not result in angles dancing on pin heads. And so it goes. I've said it before that bigfoot has become a form of entertainment and for some a source of income. It seems to excel at this as opposed to becoming a verified cataloged animal. I choose to follow science and not faith. Belief without proof is faith and the invention of science was to create a solid foundation for thought that is fact based not faith based. Edited January 14, 2015 by Crowlogic
WSA Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Crowlogic: I'm down completely with the entertainment value of BF. I just don't participate. It detracts from the real science that can be done here. Some are always going to be lured in by the bright lights and the carney barker spiel. You might want to just disengage from all that stuff, if you are paying attention to it. It clouds the reasoning and just confuses the mind. So, how open are you to the idea that BF might not be an ape? You have that to ponder, and evidence to look at on that point alone that could keep a team of anthropologists busy for a decade or more. If you can't get your noggin around the idea of an ape being where thousands of people say it is, then go there instead. So far as I can tell, you are only trying to make your understanding of the world fit the evidence...and it obviously will not. Instead, you should think more about what the evidence informs you about a world you only thought you understood.
norseman Posted January 14, 2015 Admin Posted January 14, 2015 That would be Angels...... Anyhow Crow, don't take this personal but you sound like sour grapes. You've never had anything happen to you to compel you to believe something was out there. But you for 30 years were swayed by the evidence presented to you. Until you woke up one day and had a epiphany that you were being duped. At first you were mad at the subject but could not bring yourself to ostracize the best evidence like the PGF. But now that you have considered the origins of the critter and how it got here? Now even that is being stripped away. I cannot even reconcile your experience in my own mind. Because if I had not experienced a giant snow track way? I would not be here now. Just like how I'am not on a ghost forum or a moth man forum. So now you feel compelled to save all of us from the cruel fate you've experienced, some how some way your gonna make us see the error of our ways. Even if it means ignoring facts that could support the creatures existence. The bottom line? You believed in the creature for thirty years based on ZERO personal experience, and now you have done a 180 while still clinging to the same faith based system. I saw tracks with my own two eyes Crow, that's not a belief system but reality. I have no idea if in my area the thing has gone extinct since then or I'am just not as lucky today as back then. But my stake in this subject has nothing to do with faith......for or against. All I can do is wait for the opportunity to drag the myth kicking and screaming into reality. And believe you me? I am prepared. And if the day never comes? I tried. 2
Lake County Bigfooot Posted January 14, 2015 Author Posted January 14, 2015 I can understand the frustration of not being given the experience of one of these creatures, it drove Rene Dahinden mad, and caused him to become cynical in his latter years. I wonder if I will spend a life time searching for more proof. I have had the benefit of hearing them, as well as being in proximity to them, but still the eye has not seen. If I am honest, I might become like Crow myself if I spend the type of energy I have on this creature and am standing in the same place I was 30 years ago, it is entirely understandable.
Guest Crowlogic Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) That would be Angels...... Anyhow Crow, don't take this personal but you sound like sour grapes. You've never had anything happen to you to compel you to believe something was out there. But you for 30 years were swayed by the evidence presented to you. Until you woke up one day and had a epiphany that you were being duped. At first you were mad at the subject but could not bring yourself to ostracize the best evidence like the PGF. But now that you have considered the origins of the critter and how it got here? Now even that is being stripped away. I cannot even reconcile your experience in my own mind. Because if I had not experienced a giant snow track way? I would not be here now. Just like how I'am not on a ghost forum or a moth man forum. So now you feel compelled to save all of us from the cruel fate you've experienced, some how some way your gonna make us see the error of our ways. Even if it means ignoring facts that could support the creatures existence. The bottom line? You believed in the creature for thirty years based on ZERO personal experience, and now you have done a 180 while still clinging to the same faith based system. I saw tracks with my own two eyes Crow, that's not a belief system but reality. I have no idea if in my area the thing has gone extinct since then or I'am just not as lucky today as back then. But my stake in this subject has nothing to do with faith......for or against. All I can do is wait for the opportunity to drag the myth kicking and screaming into reality. And believe you me? I am prepared. And if the day never comes? I tried. No not sour grapes at all. If there is an annoyance it is towards the lapse in logic that maintaining the belief requires after over half a century of smoke and mirrors. It is an annoyance of the special dispensations awarded to the subject in order to allow the subject to perpetuate itself. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to embrace the hypothetical and it requires a certain amount of intelligence to let the hypothetical go. Maintaining that faith BTW required me to embrace the special dispensations erected by the belief to allow it to exist. Early on communication was sparse and technology was sparser. A book could be written and it's author and backstory were only smoke on a distant horizon. This changed with the internet where the Todd Standings, Georgia, Ketchum, and more could scrutinized as their stories were being submitted. In effect also bigfoot was a victim of it's own success, it's own appeal. Step back and look at the entire story. Everything from range, habitat, numbers, claimed sightings etc. and place it next to 0% conclusive fact for 200 years and it may become obvious where fact rests. It is sometimes said that the definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Nobody here is of course crazy but each and every action good bad or indifferent does not penetrate that 0% I speak of. I remember having to describe in philosophy class the difference between being and seeming. There is a difference and something can seem to be and still not be. Edited January 14, 2015 by Crowlogic
norseman Posted January 14, 2015 Admin Posted January 14, 2015 What smoke and mirrors????? Your taking your perception and projecting it into everyone else! I SAW really really big bipedal tracks of a creature in deep snow in a remote place. It's reality, I'am sorry you wasn't there to see them. I cannot wave a magic wand and make the creature appear to prove to you he is out there or was out there. That's the difference between a skeptic and I, I can ignore Rick Dyers antics because I saw what I saw. You however are swayed back and forth.
Guest Crowlogic Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Norse all we have are our perceptions there are only perceptions in this.
WSA Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Norse, who you gonna believe? Crow, or your lyin' eyes? Yeah, that just about sums it up for the skeptic team, I think. It is a faith based assertion, premised on the idea that "I" know better than you do what you saw. (Followed very quickly with a disclaimer that you were, ah, mistaken is all...not deliberately trying to mislead or misrepresent anything) For those who tell me they saw something they've never thought possible, I'm not going to go out and mortgage my house or quit my job to prove their claims as valid. But. When that jibes with many, many other congruent accounts it is plenty enough for me to say AT THE LEAST, I have no basis to substitute my judgment for yours. With this approach, the possibilities begin to come into focus. Without it, you are merely trying to cram your squared-off version of reality into the world's round hole.
Guest Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 You're referring to my reported sighting of a thunderbird. And you dismiss it. Wonderful. Classy. In your report-reading like the wind, do you ever come across any thunderbird sightings? Hubby will probably kill me for telling this story, but the truth is hubby claims that he saw a huge prehistoric bird that looks like what is called a Thunderbird. He was in deep woods in the lower middle of Alabama Woodlands, between Montgomery and Selma I think, and a monster sized bird flew over the car. He almost wreaked the car, and that got my attention so I looked up from the book I was reading and he told me that a prehistoric bird had just flown over our car. Since hubby is totally rational, and knows a lot about just everything, I believed him. We don't know what it was, but he is distressed about it to this day:(
norseman Posted January 14, 2015 Admin Posted January 14, 2015 Norse, who you gonna believe? Crow, or your lyin' eyes? Yeah, that just about sums it up for the skeptic team, I think. It is a faith based assertion, premised on the idea that "I" know better than you do what you saw. (Followed very quickly with a disclaimer that you were, ah, mistaken is all...not deliberately trying to mislead or misrepresent anything) For those who tell me they saw something they've never thought possible, I'm not going to go out and mortgage my house or quit my job to prove their claims as valid. But. When that jibes with many, many other congruent accounts it is plenty enough for me to say AT THE LEAST, I have no basis to substitute my judgment for yours. With this approach, the possibilities begin to come into focus. Without it, you are merely trying to cram your squared-off version of reality into the world's round hole. True. But the flip side of the coin is that it's up to us guys to prove it real. We have done a dang poor job of that.
Yuchi1 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 ^^^ "That" was the University of Auburn's War Eagle! Meanwhile, back at the OP..... Bigfootery appears to have taken on an entertainment slant with shows such as Finding Bigfoot, Killing Bigfoot, Mountain Monsters, et. al., relegating the discipline to somewhat of a circus environment. Couple that with a raft of new(er) hoaxing incidents and it's no wonder the faithful are in the dolldrums. IMO, the media/cable TV buzz will subside in a few months and at some point a new "discovery" will be made to get people invigorated, once again. 1
SWWASAS Posted January 14, 2015 BFF Patron Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Crow in some ways I wish I did not have my experiences, and there were more than one. Maybe you are the lucky one? I have probably spent close to $30,000 of my own money on bigfoot research and countless hours in the field. Travel, equipment, gas, conferences, etc. But since I had the "proof for myself" experience early on, most of what I have spent is to further what little knowledge we have about the creatures and share what I am lucky enough to experience with others. Unless I find a body washing out of snow bank or skeleton washing out of the lahar on Mt Saint Helens, nothing I will do can prove existence. I am not about to go try and shoot one. I cannot imagine anything more dangerous to do than that. A body has to come from someone else. Ketchum teased many with her DNA and many thought proof was just right around the corner. Hoaxers and for profit people abound certainly. Probably what disappoints me most now, is the element of distrust that permeates bigfoot research. I had expected, somewhat naively, that my experiences and knowledge would be welcomed but I find it questioned not only by skeptics but proponents who do not accept it because they don't believe what I have experienced. We have a whole culture of research based on field methods employed by a TV show. But the same organization associated with that show, refuses to investigate reports I submit. I report my experiences here and have been called a liar, hoaxer, insane, delusional, or simply mistaken. The rewards are simply not worth the pain for the most part. Hubby will probably kill me for telling this story, but the truth is hubby claims that he saw a huge prehistoric bird that looks like what is called a Thunderbird. He was in deep woods in the lower middle of Alabama Woodlands, between Montgomery and Selma I think, and a monster sized bird flew over the car. He almost wreaked the car, and that got my attention so I looked up from the book I was reading and he told me that a prehistoric bird had just flown over our car. Since hubby is totally rational, and knows a lot about just everything, I believed him. We don't know what it was, but he is distressed about it to this day:( Are you talking about a pterodactyl? There are infrequent reports of that in out of the way places. I pray I never see one of those too. BF is tough enough. Edited January 14, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT 1
Guest Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Hubby is trying to say it was a huge flying turkey, with really long thin wings, and a big beak. Umm-Huuu, I was there, it was not a turkey..He almost wrecked the car. He swerved the car because he thought it was going to attack the car. Plus 1 to you from me, SWWA:) Edited January 15, 2015 by SweetSusiq
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