Minnesota Iceman Hoax

[kitakaze]

I have recently gone about engaging the creature FX community around the world regarding the PGF and also Bill Munns' report on it. At one of the top FX trade websites, the FX Lab, author and journalist Joe Nazzaro shared with me an excerpt from a 1997 interview he did with John Chambers in which he asked about the long-standing rumour that Chambers was involved with the PGF. Chambers in response went into detail regarding the Bigfoot hoax he was responsible for, carnival huckster Frank Hansen's Minnesota Iceman.

Here is the excerpt...

Here's an excerpt from an interview I did with John Chambers back in '97. As you can see, I was trying to address the long-standing rumors that he had been involved with the classic footage and here's what he said, sort of:

Joe: There’s been a rumor that you did the Bigfoot make-up seen in that famous clip?

John: No. I made up a Bigfoot and it’s going around yet. I used an actor who was over seven feet tall, and I said, how am I going to make that bigger? I had a couple of guys who weren’t working, and I had trained them to be with me when I had big jobs to do, mixing the plaster and things like that, so I used them, and we got this guy and gave him a few hundred dollars, I said, ‘It’s bare minimum, but I want to give these guys some work,’ and there was one guy I promised he’d do it, he wanted a Bigfoot, and he said, ‘I don’t want my face that way,’ but I said, ‘I’ll rig up the forehead a little, make a bigger forehead-’ and he said, ‘Don’t ever mention my name.’ This was a full body for a coffin, and they wanted him in a coffin, and we didn’t care what he was made of, so the most expedient way which was to take artificial stone, which was dental stone and it’s hard and we cast him in sections- head, half of the body, legs, feet; they cast beautifully, and when I put them together, I worked the texture into where the blend lines were, but on the lower legs, I separated them and added a section to make him over eight feet, so when I put that section in, he was a giant. I had Werner Keppler lay hair on it for me, and the breasts had little nipples, all the pores on his face, and if you scrutinized it, you wouldn’t believe it, it looked so natural. We had a coffin made, a big, heavy red-lined box but it looked like an open coffin, and it weighed a ton. I had it taken out and tested in the carnival area, so I could see what people were saying.

Joe: So what was this being done for?

John: A carnival. There are a lot of guys out there doing that. You know the block of ice with this body that was frozen in a block of ice? This guy’s story was really good, and he brought it to me wanting artificial eyes, and I gave him artificial eyes and I gave him the people that would do the hair, and then he had it implanted in ice. He finally got arrested by the Canadians, bringing that body across the body. They wouldn’t let him go into the ice to see if it was fake or flesh. That’s what happened with this thing; it was passed off as a real body- people would say, ‘Look at the toenails, look at the... it must be real!’ We had a speaker right near him, and we were listening to everything, but the funny thing was, the guys says, ‘I need a sign to really finish this, and I don’t know what to with it.’ I said I had an idea to make it real, so I said, ‘Listen to what I say: the creature in this coffin once lived and felt the sunset glow; like that poem, “Who lived and saw the sunset glow; now he lies in Flander’s Field;’ I took some of those phrases and put in, so it said, ‘This creature was alive, in this coffin,’ but I didn’t tell them, I put a fly under his arm, a big horsefly, and it lived and felt the sunset glow,’ and I said, ‘I’ll prove it for you, do you believe me now?’ He said, ‘You can do that?’ so I had the fly caught, because when he was challenged, he had to show the fly! That character was on the carnival circuit for years, but that was the kind of jobs I got.

[bipedalist]

Thanks, so there is a denial from Chambers that he was involved with PGF even though he is now claiming creation of the Minnesota IceMan. That is a fair trade-off for me even though I could live with any involvement he may have had with Patty's creation too.

[Guest LAL]

Hansen himself told Sanderson and Heuvelmans he'd had a model made in April, 1967, so what, pray tell, is the big deal?

Sanderson mentioned there were two model-makers stating they made copies:

"However, two separate companies specializing in model-making for waxwork museums, exhibits, and film companies in Hollywood California, have been traced, and individual model-makers working for both have stated that they made copies with wax or latex and using hair from bears. Mr. Hansen, the caretaker, informed us in January of this year that such a model had been made in April of 1967 because the owner of the original was worried about its safety. An object such as this could possibly be constructed, starting with the skin of a large male, pale-skinned chimpanzee, using a human skull, glovemakers wood racks for the hands, and so forth. The original could have been of this nature, and then a copy, or copies, made from it"

http://www.squatchopedia.com/index.php/Minnesota_Iceman

[wolftrax]

Hansen himself told Sanderson and Heuvelmans he'd had a model made in April, 1967, so what, pray tell, is the big deal?

Because it's a lie amongst lies he was telling and selling for his attraction. Because the Georgia Boys could have said the same thing and it still would not be true. Because the color image above is actually supposed to be the fake, yet looks exactly like the "Real" Iceman and people who claimed to have seen the "Real" Iceman actually identify that picture as what they saw.

If you read the above interview Chambers did not claim to have made the Minnesota Iceman besides the eyes, he did claim he referred Hansen to others to make it and Langdon confirmed this.

http://thebigfootshow.blogspot.com/2009/04/updating-website.html

Edited April 25, 2011 by wolftrax

[Guest Lesmore]

I recall seeing the Minnesota Iceman exhibit at a fair. Think it was back in the 1960's. Fairs used to feature a lot of strange items back then...walls of death (motorcycles), people with physical abnormalities would be on exhibit.

I recall the an exhibit sign saying Sewer Rats...they're huge ! Well they were huge, but they were not rats, but South American rodents....huge rodents.

It's changed a lot, for the good I think. Some exhibits traded on people's misfortunes.

[Wheellug]

Chambers said he made it 8' tall? Wasn't there some measurements taken of the subject in the ice?

[wolftrax]

read the article carefully. Chambers was talking about making the Burbank Bigfoot, he did not make the Minnesota Iceman besides the eyes, but he did refer Hansen to people who did make the Iceman.

http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/burbank-bigfoot/

Edited April 25, 2011 by wolftrax

[Guest LAL]

Because it's a lie amongst lies he was telling and selling for his attraction. Because the Georgia Boys could have said the same thing and it still would not be true. Because the color image above is actually supposed to be the fake, yet looks exactly like the "Real" Iceman and people who claimed to have seen the "Real" Iceman actually identify that picture as what they saw.

If you read the above interview Chambers did not claim to have made the Minnesota Iceman besides the eyes, he did claim he referred Hansen to others to make it and Langdon confirmed this.

http://thebigfootsho...ng-website.html

I did read the article. Did you follow my link?

"In August 2008, Verne Langdon[1], former co-owner of Don Post Studios, a mask and prop manufacturer for Hollywood studios, alleged that Frank Hansen had approached his company about creating a prehistoric manlike creature for exhibit on the carnival circuit. Hansen was referred to a Howard Ball, who created a realistic “hot melt iceman†sculpture as designed by Hansen. This took place around 1964. Langdon goes on to recall, “John [Chambers] contacted Werner Keppler at Universal for Frank [Hansen], and Werner agreed to make up the creature, then ventillate [sic] Yak hair into it, one, two, or three hairs at a time, depending upon the area of the body. Meticulous work, of which Werner is a master! After Werner finished with Frank Hansen's "Ice Man", Frank brought it by to show us before he had it frozen (we suggested Union Ice Company in Los Angeles, as I recall.) It would fool the toughest of skeptics, as was proven when no less than Ivan Sanderson fell head-over-heels for it!â€"

Did you hear the podcast with Langdon? I thought he needed a cup of coffee.

Sanderson saw lice eggs. If they were salt, why didn't the salt dissolve when water was poured into the freezer?

The Georgia boys should have paid more attention:

Photo by Loren Coleman

If the Iceman was a real deal and was smuggled into the country this would explain Hansen's concern about International Law. Copies may have been necessary since the original was rotting but switching the original for a copy would have thrown off suspicious authorities.

"While touring with the iceman, Hansen was reportedly detained by Canadian customs officials, who were concerned he was transporting a cadaver, or a possible health risk. Hansen reportedly contacted his senator, Walter Mondale, who was able to "pull the right strings to let the Iceman come back home."

http://en.wikipedia....innesota_Iceman

We'll never know, will we?

[wolftrax]

Yes, we do know. There's just no comparison to Hansen's story and Langdon's, which was confirmed by Chambers. We have the names of the people who did the work, first found by Napier and confirmed by Langdon. We know Hansen lied several times about the Iceman. He had absolutely no credibility. Even in your post you have the Argosy cover, which is supposed to be the real Iceman, and the color photo by Coleman, which is supposed to be the fake. They look exactly the same. Sanderson saw lice eggs through blurry milky ice? lol more likely he saw small crumbs or balls of wax on the hair.

It's a fake, a hoax, a gaff.

[Guest Blackdog]

As long as we're citing Wikipedia as a reliable source let's see what it says about Ivan T. Sanderson:

In 1948, several people reported finding large, three-toed animal tracks at Clearwater Beach in Florida. Later, more tracks were found along the shore of Suwannee River, 40 miles (60 kilometers) from the ocean. A young couple also reported having been harassed by a large creature that had risen from the ocean.

Later that year a giant penguin was allegedly sighted at distance. The huge bird was described as 15 feet (4.5 meters) tall, and having alligator-like feet. During this same period, people in a boat off the Florida gulf coast reported seeing an extremely large penguin-like bird floating on the water. These incidents were reported in several newspapers. Later that year, another huge, penguin-like bird was allegedly seen from an airplane on the banks of the Suwannee River in northern Florida. The sighter, zoologist Ivan T. Sanderson, declared that the creature was a giant penguin that had somehow been driven away out its natural habitat.

On April 11, 1988, St. Petersburg Times reporter Jan Kirby revealed that the penguin hoax had been perpetrated by Tony Signorini and Al Williams, a locally known prankster who died in 1969. Signorini stated they had been inspired by a photograph of fossilized dinosaur tracks, and showed the reporter the huge penguin feet made of iron used in creating the tracks.[1] The other sightings are either also hoaxes or based on observer error; some sharks might resemble a giant penguin when seen from above under adverse conditions, for example.

Bolding mine.

[Guest LAL]

Yes, we do know. There's just no comparison to Hansen's story and Langdon's, which was confirmed by Chambers. We have the names of the people who did the work, first found by Napier and confirmed by Langdon. We know Hansen lied several times about the Iceman. He had absolutely no credibility. Even in your post you have the Argosy cover, which is supposed to be the real Iceman, and the color photo by Coleman, which is supposed to be the fake. They look exactly the same. Sanderson saw lice eggs through blurry milky ice? lol more likely he saw small crumbs or balls of wax on the hair.

It's a fake, a hoax, a gaff.

In your opinion. Maybe the photos look "exactly" the same because they were the same. Coleman's photo showed up in Heuvelman's effects. I asked Loren what the 15 identifying differences were and he didn't know. Apparently Sanderson didn't say. Perhaps thawing and repositioning and refreezing accounted for some of them. Or, it was a very good copy.

Your gaff expert said the lice eggs were salt. Take it up with him.

"The figure to the right is from Bernard Heuvelmans' 1969 description of a controversial specimen called the 'ice man', which he calledHomo pongoides. The specimen was examined in a block of ice and has since disappeared. This has led some commentators to disbelieve the comprehensive study Heuvelmans published in 1974. Dr Loofs-Wissowa suggests that few detractors have studied Heuvelmans' original publications.

So there remain many questions. And so far no specimens have been recovered. There have been several reports in the last 15 years in the region of Kontum - Sa Thay alone. Those we recently began investigating are shown on this satellite map (160k).

But perhaps these questions go well-beyond the veracity of the 'Minnesota ice man' to the nature of scientific research. Some scientists are reticent even to consider the possibility of the existence of an undiscovered hominoid. It is an uncomfortable subject for us, since we lack incontrovertable evidence. We could be seen to have fallen in with the unscrupulous and gullible."

http://istina.rin.ru...o/text/188.html

[wolftrax]

In your opinion.

lol no everything indicates it is a fake, all who have come forward to say it's a fake all have confirmation from others, the person promoting it never had a straight story and even admitted having it made though he twisted that around with the timeline, the admitted fake looks exactly the same as what was claimed to be real, and the only reason you don't have a body to examine is because the person who had it wouldn't give it up.

Therefore, it's a fake until proven real.

[Guest LAL]

As long as we're citing Wikipedia as a reliable source let's see what it says about Ivan T. Sanderson:

Bolding mine.

Been there, done that, worn the T-shirt. Who says Wiki is a reliable source? It's a good place to start sometimes.

There were reports of a giant penguin-like bird in the area and Sanderson and his team may have been remiss in not thinking immediately of iron stompers that were supposed to be dinosaur feet, but Sanderson and Heuvelmans were well aware of gaffs in carnivals. You've read their full reports, of course? Sanderson parted company with Heuvelmans over the idea it was a Neandertal.

[Guest Blackdog]

So you're buying the Viet Nam story? What about the Minnesota deer hunting story (My favorite because it's near my home town), or the "found in a floating block of ice" story?

It was a nice gaff, but it was a gaff...sorry.

[Guest Blackdog]

Been there, done that, worn the T-shirt. Who says Wiki is a reliable source? It's a good place to start sometimes.

There were reports of a giant penguin-like bird in the area and Sanderson and his team may have been remiss in not thinking immediately of iron stompers that were supposed to be dinosaur feet, but Sanderson and Heuvelmans were well aware of gaffs in carnivals. You've read their full reports, of course? Sanderson parted company with Heuvelmans over the idea it was a Neandertal.

Sanderson says he saw the giant penguin. Did you read the article or my quote? I bolded the part where it said "The sighter".

It doesn't matter what their report said (yes I've read it), they were wrong. That happens sometimes you know.