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kitakaze

Minnesota Iceman Hoax

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Guest ajciani

I had asked previously if those who still hold to the Iceman being the real deal were doing so because of the involvement of Sanderson and Heuvelmans.

My problem with such an approach: Sanderson and Heuvelmans were not thoroughly objective. ... In fact, the body was purposefully obscured through the medium of ice. The two scientists virtually ignored the all-important fact that this was a carny sideshow for a reason. We do not know how familiar either man was with gaff making. In fact, Sanderson seems to think if it was a fake, then it would have been a patchwork of real animal body parts, such as the old "mermaid" gaffs that were the product of fish and monkey parts sewn together.

Sanderson and Heuvelmans were perfectly aware that they were looking at something being displayed by a carny. Their reports clearly indicated this, and that the ice was a hindrance to the investigation. They also noted Hansen's lack of cooperation.

Their conclusion that if fake, it must have been constructed from real animal parts, was based on their inspection of the corpse. The appearance of the hair, the reaction of the hair to the submersion and freezing, the seepage of body fluids into the ice, among a list of other observations, led them to discount the possibility that they were looking at a mannequin constructed of synthetic materials.

A later report of the iceman, after the changes had been performed, revealed coarse, sparse hair, rather than the fine, dense hair originally observed. The teeth didn't look real. There was no appearance of blood or body fluids seeping into the ice. Among those and other observations, it looked like a hair covered mannequin frozen in a chunk of ice, with nothing to indicate otherwise.

I will also point out, that West's picture is declared to be of a mannequin, because West was able to examine the thawed mannequin, which he photographed. There is no supposition in that. The West photograph is a mannequin. Some tip offs are: the lips have a strange appearance, the arm is raised, the face is a different color from the body, and the left leg is pointing in an unnatural direction. However, if the mannequin were frozen in a perfectly clear block of ice, the only tip offs to it being a mannequin would be the lips, and the coloration of the face. With the resolution of the West images, it would be impossible to definitively declare the thing a mannequin.

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Guest 127

This thread (to me) is a great example of how this legend of bigfoot lives on. To the believers no proof will do. You cannot convince them this iceman was a fake. The funny part (to me) is if this were to happen today, everyone here would be throwing stones and calling it a fake.

This is just like the PGF hoax. No proof will satisfy those that want to believe in its authenticty. People love to be fooled. They will pay big dollars for it.

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Guest LAL

Correction: the source said 500 page technical article. 500 words in French I can handle if they aren't too long. :lol:

The open mouth pictures are in B&W in the book with a caption but they aren't credited so I don't know if they were Coleman's or not yet.

From Rossi & Saggese (translation by Google with some minor editing - emphasis mine):

"In his book on the subject, published in 1974 under the title "L'Homme de Neanderthal est toujours vivant"(The Neadertal man has survived ), written in collaboration with the Russian historian Boris Porchnev, Heuvelmans has extensively discussed these apparent differences in this regard by showing different pictures. The thesis of the Belgian zoologist, is that in reality Hansen had simply limited further to dissolve the ice that covered the corpse and then refroze it, and that the person in the casket was then still the same. The photographs taken then appear sharper fact regarding the visibility of details, proof that the layer of ice must have necessarily narrowed. The most impressive special concern, however, the changes in the position of the mouth, dramatically more open than before and showing a greater number of teeth. According to Heuvelmans the mouth movements were made by Hansen after the dissolution of this particular ice and further strengthens the hypothesis about the authenticity of the find, had also found that the skin wrinkles, moles and small scars were still in place. Despite the bad publicity that Hansen was careful with such care to get to her show (signs of his last exhibition marked "Creature Siberian artificial, such as that under investigation by the FBI") Professor Murrill, Department of Anthropology at the University of Minnesota, decided to examine of the person presumed dead so controversial. As Sanderson and Heuvelmans before him, was so impressed by Hansen to offer a high sum in cash to acquire the find on behalf of his university. Hansen though, suddenly decided to do disappear forever the body, thereby preventing any further analysis, which did not help at all about its possible authenticity. Absolutely displaced, Sanderson and Heuvelmans, who wanted to run on it an x-ray examination and take samples of blood dissolved in ice perform the analysis, however, remained firmly convinced of the authenticity of the find, in their view a kind of Neanderthal current, highly specialized, dubbed Homo pongoides. It could come from the forests of Vietnam, where he was killed by a gunshot to the head, that blew the balls from their sockets. From there it was imported illegally in America, probably locked away in a bag to transport the corpses with this process, in the late 60s, was born a flourishing smuggling consignments of heroin , hidden in bags carried by American warplanes ... Hansen was therefore rejected any further analysis for fear of being victim of some lawsuit where he exposed the corpse was found to be authentic. "

http://cerbi.ldi5.co...?id_article=133

Even if the original was shot, killed and frozen in a more northerly area, dealing with Russians (or Chinese, for that matter) in any way wouldn't have been looked on too kindly given the political climate of the times.

<edited for typo>

Edited by LAL

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Guest Crowlogic

Thank you. Did it look like the model Rick West photographed?

Yes it looked much more like the model Rick West photographed. When I first viewed it I was trying to reconcile why it didn't look like Argosy magazine which I believe had stills of the article photographs on display at the same time.

The original Iceman was taken off of display early on due to legal complications about showing a corpse. That said what I believe was a model that I saw it did appear very convincing frozen in the ice.

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Guest ajciani

Crow,

When you looked upon the iceman, was in just in an entertaining wonder, or did you try to see if there was anything that would betray it as a model, or prove it a corpse?

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Guest

Sanderson and Heuvelmans were perfectly aware that they were looking at something being displayed by a carny. Their reports clearly indicated this, and that the ice was a hindrance to the investigation. They also noted Hansen's lack of cooperation.

Their conclusion that if fake, it must have been constructed from real animal parts, was based on their inspection of the corpse. The appearance of the hair, the reaction of the hair to the submersion and freezing, the seepage of body fluids into the ice, among a list of other observations, led them to discount the possibility that they were looking at a mannequin constructed of synthetic materials.

A later report of the iceman, after the changes had been performed, revealed coarse, sparse hair, rather than the fine, dense hair originally observed. The teeth didn't look real. There was no appearance of blood or body fluids seeping into the ice. Among those and other observations, it looked like a hair covered mannequin frozen in a chunk of ice, with nothing to indicate otherwise.

I will also point out, that West's picture is declared to be of a mannequin, because West was able to examine the thawed mannequin, which he photographed. There is no supposition in that. The West photograph is a mannequin. Some tip offs are: the lips have a strange appearance, the arm is raised, the face is a different color from the body, and the left leg is pointing in an unnatural direction. However, if the mannequin were frozen in a perfectly clear block of ice, the only tip offs to it being a mannequin would be the lips, and the coloration of the face. With the resolution of the West images, it would be impossible to definitively declare the thing a mannequin.

Sanderson and Heuvelmans were certainly aware that they were looking at a carny sideshow exhibit and virtually ignored the implications. Couple this with the fact that they did not examine the creature/creation in any conclusive way, but simply looked at it, obscured by a cloak of ice, took measurements, and then went on to proclaim to the world that they had found a recently alive neanderthal or homo erectus, and the end result is some very shoddy, open wish fulfillment passed off as a scientific breakthrough.

The hair of the Iceman would not be "synthetic", but was said to be Yak hair. (This makes sense, Hollywood creature makers had been using Yak hair for years. Lon Chaney, Jr.'s The Wolfman was a recipient of such hair.)

With all due respect, your "tip offs" are meager. West noted that the darkened face was due to mold. (Even if it wasn't, must we choose between a little shoe polish on a model and necessarily acknowledging a surviving neanderthal?) The angle of the left foot, and the alleged "strange" lips of the "mannequin", are, like Sanderson's and Heuvelmans' reports, in the eye of the beholder.

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Guest

A quote from Rick West:

Westquote.jpg

I would like to thank LAL for her sleuthing and the finding of good photos of the Iceman, melted.

I purchased Rick West's book and it is clear that he does not believe Hansen's Iceman was ever anything other than a carney's gaff.

To quote: "Ice made the whole thing believable. Without the ice, it would have been just another creature show on the carnival midway. With the ice -- key to creating the illusion -- the show reflected Frank's genius." (p. 32).

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Guest LAL

I would like to thank LAL for her sleuthing and the finding of good photos of the Iceman, melted.

I purchased Rick West's book and it is clear that he does not believe Hansen's Iceman was ever anything other than a carney's gaff.

To quote: "Ice made the whole thing believable. Without the ice, it would have been just another creature show on the carnival midway. With the ice -- key to creating the illusion -- the show reflected Frank's genius." (p. 32).

Thanks for posting that. Heuvelmans, if I'm reading him correctly, thought Hansen was "a simple man" (not a genius). To a carny the ice was necessary for the illusion. To trained zoologists the ice was necessary because the thing was decomposing.

Hansen seemed to tailor his story to his audience (he did tell West the real owner had taken it back when West first talked to him by phone in 2002) but the memory loss suggests there was something wrong. Many things can cause dementia, but thinking back to that quart of gin I'm wondering if he might have had Korsakov's syndrome or something on the way to it. People with Korsakov's tend to confabulate and are extremely convincing. The mind fills in the blanks so the memories are real to the afflicted person. I may be putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, 6, or even 7, but I'd like to know more.

West also mentioned laws about showing dead bodies being passed in the mid-sixties. These mostly affected the "Baby shows" and pickled punks were replaced by bouncers. The public didn't seem to mind.

Even if the original wasn't smuggled having a dead body in a show could have caused Hansen legal problems.

I have a few more pictures scanned. I'll be posting them soon. This one shows the ice wasn't all that thick (it looks better in the book). In some places it was "clear as air".

iced.jpg

Edited by LAL

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Guest LAL

Regarding the chest:

chests.jpg

In color:

chest.jpg

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Guest FuriousGeorge

The poll was pinned for 1 month and pretty much slowed down and stopped. This thread fell to the bottom of the second page. Poll results will not merge. Here are the results.

63 votes total

[31] Yes, it has been proven to be a hoax.

[17] No, I think at one time a real apeman was used.

[15] I am undecided

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Guest Alpinist

I'm beginning to realize the depth of harm done decades ago to sasquatch and wild-man research by an early band of credulous investigators, Sanderson, Heuvelmans, Green, and others, and find that their missteps in gullibility and bias haunt us even now.

Its a sad thing for sure, and a very interesting thread.

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kitakaze

We definitely need to do some thread merging.

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