Minnesota Iceman Hoax

[Guest ajciani]

The thing I don't like about some of the pictures, particularly the Loren Coleman one showing the teeth, is that the teeth have rather unnatural gaps between them. Was this taken of the original iceman, or after the supposed switch?

I really wish we knew where this thing was being displayed now, and if the "real" body is ever on display, or if only the fake is out. Looking at the teeth should tell whether it's real or fake. Are there any good photos of them?

Also, I suspect a concrete casting would cause the ice to respond differently than a wax casting or a real body.

[Guest]

He claimed to have made the switch right after the Argosy article:

"

Then I was sent a copy of Argosy magazine, with a story by Sanderson about this thing, calling it Homo pongoides, which I found out was what Heuvelmans had called it in his paper published by the Royal Institute of Natural Sciences of Belgium.

The decision was made for me to get out of this as quickly as possible and not long after that my good friend Sheriff George Ford of Winona County showed up and said: 'Frank, would you believe I got an enquiry from Mr. Brewer at the FBI office in Rochester who has received a letter from J. Edgar Hoover asking for him to find out what is in this coffin.

Is it flesh and blood? Is it something that should be confiscated? Is it something that's been shot and frozen artificially? What is it?'I said 'Well, George, it's what I tell everybody it is, it's a fabricated illusion which I had made in a studio in Hollywood: He said: 'You don't mind if I look at it, do you?' and I said, 'No I don't mind' and he said, 'Well, I'll be back tomorrow with a pathologist, I've got to answer this enquiry for Mr Brewer in Rochester.'

That night I got my neighbor from across the road to come over with his big tractor with his big front end loader and got my tractor with the front-end loader out and we dug my trailer tractor out of the snow bank; it was completely covered in snow; and backed it underneath the semi. Before daylight the next morning we were heading south. <br>

"

http://www.bigfooten...wman_hansen.htm

Not helping your case, wolf. He'd already "outed" himself to the Sherrif and would have nothing to lose by letting samples be taken (as it would confirm that it was fake if it in fact was).

The fact that he got the Heck out of Dodge ASAP shows that he had something to hide, from the sherrif: a real BF/apeman body that would get him in trouble if it were confirmed to be genuine at the time.

He let people believe it was the real deal and made up stories about it, then later when the heat was on he makes up another story about it yet has admitted he had the model made. That's a hoax, Lal.

Yes, he hoaxed about it being a hoax to keep out of legal trouble. It's that simple.

Then do it, enough with the off topic crusade and actually examine the evidence this thread is about.

I have, and I agree with the conclusions of the researcher and the scientist, not the speculations of the Skeptics.

[Guest LAL]

You mean, gasp, Hansen was lying?! At last we agree! The thread can close now, the Iceman's staunchest supporter has seen the light!

I think it can stay open. Unless Sanderson was a closet alcoholic, that amount could be lethal. I haven't found anything else about Sanderson drinking. The article you posted has a different sequence of events.

Canada was in July,1969 according to this one:

""The reports published by Sanderson and Heuvelmans brought an incredible amount of attention Hansen's way, much to his anger because he had insisted on no publicity when he allowed them to examine the Iceman. He was particularly upset with Heuvelmans, whose report appeared first.

"According to Hansen, what does not appear in either scientist's report is just how they became convinced the Iceman was real. To get the best possible view of it they had hung bright lights over the glass under which it lay, and while Hansen was away from them for a moment one of them placed one of the hot lights directly on the ice cold glass. It shattered, and a pungent odor like that of rotting flesh rose from the ice. This convinced them that an actual corpse, freshly killed, lay before them. Hansen will never forget what the distinguished scientists said when he reminded them of their promise not to publicize the story at that point. 'We are scientists first,' they told him, 'and gentlemen second.' (He doesn't say exactly which one of them said this.)" (p.144).

Ivan Sanderson, in his report, refers to this important incident in this way: "The corpse or whatever it is, is rotting. This could be detected by a strong stench -- typical of rotting mammalian flesh - exuding from one of the corners of the insulation of the coffin. Whatever this corpse may be, it would seem to include flesh of some kind" (Genus, p.253).

Why did Hansen insist on no publicity when he allowed the two scientists to examine his exhibit? How could publicity from such examination harm his carnival sideshow business? And why did publication of the scientists' conclusion that the corpse was real cause the showman's anger? The answer is in Magnus Linklater's words cited above: "a capital crime may have been committed". This must have been the reason for Hansen's subsequent actions, maneuvers, and conflicting stories. Let us also note one of his recurring statements that was as little believed as all his other declarations, namely, that the Iceman did not belong to him but to a millionaire in California.

A second episode indicating the Iceman's reality happened in July 1969 when, after a tour of Canada with his exhibit, Hansen was held up by US customs officials at a border post in North Dakota. The episode was related by Sanderson to Heuvelmans and is mentioned in the latter's book (pp.283-84). Customs demanded from Hansen special permission by the US Surgeon General for carrying the corpse of a "humanoid creature". Hansen argued that it was not a real corpse but a "fabricated illusion" made of latex rubber and offered documents of its fabrication. That did not impress the officials, who demanded that a piece of the Iceman be taken for examination. Hansen protested, saying this would damage the exhibit.

In desperation he even phoned Sanderson and asked for advice. The latter, thinking that this time Hansen toured the model, advised that the customs x-ray the exhibit, to which suggestion Hansen cried out: "Impossible! The owner will never allow this!" (My translation from the French. - D.B.).(Heuvelmans remarks in brackets that there was no need to inform and ask the owner because x-rays leave no traces). Hansen then sought by phone the help of the Iceman's owner in California, as well as that of his own Senator in Washington, Walter F. Mondale, subsequently US Vice-President in Carter's Administration. Twenty four hours later Hansen was released with the Iceman unchecked."

This kind of blows Napier's conjecture too. If Hansen needed publicity why did he get angry when he got it?

Would X-rays have revealed bones? Is that why he reacted so vehemently?

As for the stories-

""Hansen was given permission to use whatever phony advertising he wished in order to draw crowds. Stories about 'Bigfoot' in the news at that time helped as well, and the display was very popular. (...) After some time, however, Hansen began to worry that he might get into serious legal trouble if what he had turned out to be a human corpse. So, returning to California, he had a replica manufactured from latex rubber and hair, intending to switch it with the original if he ever had to."(pp.143-44)."

http://www.hominolog...d.ru/iseman.htm

If he had been involved in smuggling that might have explained some of his worry too.

The Hollywood special effects firm claimed that they had made the "Iceman" in 1967.

As I recall , Roger Knights (on the old BFF) determined Hansen, who was a pilot in the Air Force, wasn't in Nam but he had buddies who were. Jimmy Stewart was a Brigadier General in the USAF, Per Wiki, "In 1966, Brigadier General James Stewart flew as a non-duty observer in a B-52 on a bombing mission during the Vietnam War. At the time of his B-52 flight, he refused the release of any publicity regarding his participation, as he did not want it treated as a stunt, but as part of his job as an officer in the Air Force Reserve."

Maybe I watched too much M*A*S*H but I keep getting this picture of enlisted men cleaning the ice cream out of a freezer in the middle of the night and loading in a freshly-killed unidentified Asian hominoid primate. I think I like the Hong Kong story better - or was it Tokyo?.

On the Pangboche Hand:

"Oil businessman and adventurer Tom Slick first heard accounts of the possible existence of a "Yeti hand" held as a ritual artifact in the monastery at Pangboche during one of his first "Abominable Snowman" treks in 1957. The Slick expeditions were the first to bring photographs of the hand back to the West.

During later Tom Slick-sponsored expeditions in and around the Himalayas, his associates gathered more information on the "Pangboche hand," and an effort to further examine it was planned. In 1959 Peter Byrne, a member of Slick's expedition that year, reportedly stole pieces of the artifact after the monks who owned it refused to allow its removal for study. Byrne claimed to have replaced the stolen bone fragments with human bones, rewrapping the hand to disguise his theft.

Byrne smuggled the bones from Nepal into India, after which actor James Stewart allegedly smuggled the hand out of the country in his luggage. Cryptozoologist Loren Coleman rediscovered this story while writing Tom Slick's biography in the 1980s. Coleman confirmed details of the incidents with written materials in the Slick archives, interviews with Byrne, and correspondence with Stewart. Byrne later confirmed the Pangboche hand story via a letter from Stewart that Byrne published in a general book on Nepalese wildlife.^[1]

During the highly-publicized 1960 World Book expedition, which had many goals including gathering intelligence on Chinese rocket launchings, Sir Edmund Hillary and Marlin Perkins took a sidetrip in Nepal to investigate the hand. Hillary was unaware of the possibility that he was looking at a combination of the original material and the human bones placed there by Byrne. Hillary determined the artifact was a hoax."

http://en.wikipedia..../Pangboche_Hand

Edited April 30, 2011 by LAL

[Guest LAL]

The thing I don't like about some of the pictures, particularly the Loren Coleman one showing the teeth, is that the teeth have rather unnatural gaps between them. Was this taken of the original iceman, or after the supposed switch?

Another "Iceman" had gaps between his teeth. The Argosy photo doesn't show the mouth that open. Supposedly Coleman photographed the "obvious" fake but that's one of the things in question.

I really wish we knew where this thing was being displayed now, and if the "real" body is ever on display, or if only the fake is out. Looking at the teeth should tell whether it's real or fake. Are there any good photos of them?

See link earlier in the thread.

Also, I suspect a concrete casting would cause the ice to respond differently than a wax casting or a real body.

Good point. More later. Gotta run.........

[wolftrax]

Not helping your case, wolf. He'd already "outed" himself to the Sherrif and would have nothing to lose by letting samples be taken (as it would confirm that it was fake if it in fact was).

The fact that he got the Heck out of Dodge ASAP shows that he had something to hide, from the sherrif: a real BF/apeman body that would get him in trouble if it were confirmed to be genuine at the time.

Naw, he just played that up because he was already busted at the border and needed drama to keep the mystery alive.

Yes, he hoaxed about it being a hoax to keep out of legal trouble. It's that simple.

LOl, I guess the Georgia boys gave up way too soon. Show some tenacity and fans will buy anything.

This kind of blows Napier's conjecture too. If Hansen needed publicity why did he get angry when he got it?

An act of drama to promote a hoax.

Would X-rays have revealed bones? Is that why he reacted so vehemently?

He's promoting a hoax, remember? He doesn't want x-rays taken blowing his money maker.

As I recall , Roger Knights (on the old BFF) determined Hansen, who was a pilot in the Air Force, wasn't in Nam but he had buddies who were. Jimmy Stewart was a Brigadier General in the USAF, Per Wiki, "In 1966, Brigadier General James Stewart flew as a non-duty observer in a B-52 on a bombing mission during the Vietnam War. At the time of his B-52 flight, he refused the release of any publicity regarding his participation, as he did not want it treated as a stunt, but as part of his job as an officer in the Air Force Reserve."

Maybe I watched too much M*A*S*H but I keep getting this picture of enlisted men cleaning the ice cream out of a freezer in the middle of the night and loading in a freshly-killed unidentified Asian hominoid primate. I think I like the Hong Kong story better - or was it Tokyo?.

On the Pangboche Hand:

"Oil businessman and adventurer Tom Slick first heard accounts of the possible existence of a "Yeti hand" held as a ritual artifact in the monastery at Pangboche during one of his first "Abominable Snowman" treks in 1957. The Slick expeditions were the first to bring photographs of the hand back to the West.

During later Tom Slick-sponsored expeditions in and around the Himalayas, his associates gathered more information on the "Pangboche hand," and an effort to further examine it was planned. In 1959 Peter Byrne, a member of Slick's expedition that year, reportedly stole pieces of the artifact after the monks who owned it refused to allow its removal for study. Byrne claimed to have replaced the stolen bone fragments with human bones, rewrapping the hand to disguise his theft.

Byrne smuggled the bones from Nepal into India, after which actor James Stewart allegedly smuggled the hand out of the country in his luggage. Cryptozoologist Loren Coleman rediscovered this story while writing Tom Slick's biography in the 1980s. Coleman confirmed details of the incidents with written materials in the Slick archives, interviews with Byrne, and correspondence with Stewart. Byrne later confirmed the Pangboche hand story via a letter from Stewart that Byrne published in a general book on Nepalese wildlife.[1]

During the highly-publicized 1960 World Book expedition, which had many goals including gathering intelligence on Chinese rocket launchings, Sir Edmund Hillary and Marlin Perkins took a sidetrip in Nepal to investigate the hand. Hillary was unaware of the possibility that he was looking at a combination of the original material and the human bones placed there by Byrne. Hillary determined the artifact was a hoax."

http://en.wikipedia..../Pangboche_Hand

Non-stop hilarity. Hansen didn't have to construct crazy scenarios, you do it for him! lol

[Guest LAL]

An act of drama to promote a hoax.

I anxiously await your evidence for this as well as the name of the game we're playing. I'm afraid I'm only good at chess and that when I don't let my opponents intimidate me.

He's promoting a hoax, remember? He doesn't want x-rays taken blowing his money maker.

But he told them it was just an exhibit. How would proving it have blown his money-maker? Are Customs Officials in the habit of broadcasting their findings?

Non-stop hilarity. Hansen didn't have to construct crazy scenarios, you do it for him! lol

Quoting something is non-stop hilarity to you?

Here's another laughable quote for you: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.†- Mahatma Gandhi

[wolftrax]

Unfortunately, Lal, you can't win. The game was up a long time ago, well before there was a BFF. As soon as Hansen started telling different stories, it was all downhill from there. Many of these things you are clinging to, why this and why that, originate from Hansen. No matter how you argue, or try to reason it out, it still doesn't change that Hansen had this made, exhibited it, and exploited every avenue of attention he could to make as much money as possible from it, from journalism to legal action. Classic hoax.

[Guest LAL]

Unfortunately, Lal, you can't win. The game was up a long time ago, well before there was a BFF. As soon as Hansen started telling different stories, it was all downhill from there. Many of these things you are clinging to, why this and why that, originate from Hansen. No matter how you argue, or try to reason it out, it still doesn't change that Hansen had this made, exhibited it, and exploited every avenue of attention he could to make as much money as possible from it, from journalism to legal action. Classic hoax.

The equipage cost an estimated $50,000, big money in 1967. He was having trouble making back the investment. Why go to all that trouble to use actual refrigeration when that could have been faked too, or the model displayed like Rosalia Lombardo in dim light?

Of course I can't win when I'm not playing a game. I may continue to correct you if you continue to misunderstand of misrepresent your anecdotal evidence but I'd rather finish listening to Verne Langdon while I do something constructive - like clean the fish tanks.

Bye for now.

[kitakaze]

Maybe I watched too much M*A*S*H but I keep getting this picture of enlisted men cleaning the ice cream out of a freezer in the middle of the night and loading in a freshly-killed unidentified Asian hominoid primate. I think I like the Hong Kong story better - or was it Tokyo?.

It was both. You know that...

http://www.hominology.narod.ru/iseman.htm

It's positively delicious that in the case of Bob Heironimus, you dismiss the man as a liar based on your thinking he doesn't have straight stories, yet Frank Hansen can tell completely different stories such as getting the iceman from a refrigeration plant in Hong Kong, a fish market in Tokyo, and a hunting trip in Minnesota and it's all good.

[wolftrax]

Of course I can't win when I'm not playing a game. I may continue to correct you if you continue to misunderstand of misrepresent your anecdotal evidence but I'd rather finish listening to Verne Langdon while I do something constructive - like clean the fish tanks.

I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent the evidence. I don't dance and jump around with every lie that Hansen told. They might seem like great cards to have in hand, but really it's only dropping deuces.

Great that you are finally listening to Langdon. That is, after all, what is considered objective.

[kitakaze]

That's not a hoax; That's Entertainment!

What the Georgia boys did was a hoax.

How is taking people's money with the promise of a real apeman encased in ice not a hoax? Matt Whitton and Rick Dyer insist what they did was entertainment...

[Huntster]

Unfortunately, Lal, you can't win.

"Winning".

Are you a Charlie fan? Are you in to this to learn, or to "win"?

[wolftrax]

I was responding to this, so your question is actually directed at Lal:

Here's another laughable quote for you: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.†- Mahatma Gandhi

[Huntster]

Unfortunately, Lal, you can't win.

"Winning".

Are you a Charlie fan? Are you in to this to learn, or to "win"?

I was responding to this, so your question is actually directed at Lal:

LAL, on 30 April 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

Here's another laughable quote for you: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.†- Mahatma Gandhi

Not at all. I didn't write that some won't "win" and some won't "lose". I asked if you're "in to this to learn, or to 'win'".

Frankly, I'm in to this because I want to see the species survive. And, I guess since I'm as selfish as the next guy, I'd like to see a sasquatch.

I'll note that I didn't get an answer. I got a diversion. A diversion at your "enemy".

[Guest]

Naw, he just played that up because he was already busted at the border and needed drama to keep the mystery alive.

Prove it.

LOl, I guess the Georgia boys gave up way too soon. Show some tenacity and fans will buy anything.

The Georgia boys don't have the professional observations of a researcher and a scientist to back them up, and they were quite easily exposed.

An act of drama to promote a hoax.

Or the entirely legitimate reaction of a man who didn't want to be put on the spot that he was.

He's promoting a hoax, remember? He doesn't want x-rays taken blowing his money maker.

So he risks criminal prosecution and jail time just to "protect his hoax", which at worst would no longer make him money...and you accuse ME of abusing credulity...

Non-stop hilarity. Hansen didn't have to construct crazy scenarios, you do it for him! lol

Back to one of your favorites (argumentum ad ridicule) wolf?

But he told them it was just an exhibit. How would proving it have blown his money-maker? Are Customs Officials in the habit of broadcasting their findings?

Sssshhhhh...don't confuse anyone with logic...some people don't react too well to it...