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BigTreeWalker

What About The Bones?

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BigTreeWalker

This thread is to share some of the findings my research partner, my son, and I have found in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest between Mt St Helens and Mt Adams in Washington State. We are in the process of completing a research paper on our findings which we will be submitting for publishing in the next couple months. However, I wanted to share some of our findings here for those who spend time in the field; to give them additional information to look for, and to utilize in their own field research. There is considerable information which I will be posting as I have time. I do keep a daily log of my time in the field which I would recommend for anyone spending time in the field. It is too easy to forget important or even not so important details later on that may end up becoming important.

 

My own background is in Wildlife Biology and yes I do have some initials after my name, for those that it matters. But, to me, what matters most is the 50+ years I have spent out in the field; hunting, hiking, fishing, photographing, learning tracking skills, and doing my own personal research. Have I observed a bigfoot in the field? No I have not. However, this evidence and other evidence I have found tells me there is something unknown out there. Just as cougar tracks and kills tell me cougars are out there though I have yet to see one in the wild.

 

This research is based on three separate sites that we discovered located 7 to 10 miles apart in our study area. We identified some specific behavior in the study of each of these sites, as well as specific tooth impressions in the bones. The forensic evidence of tooth impressions in bone can be used to identify the possible predators that were responsible for the kill. There has been considerable research done in this field to help identify the possible culprit or scavenger of a kill (mostly for human remains). The size and type of predator can be determined by the various impressions they leave in bone with their canines and/or carnassials (carnivore molars).

 

I will also be posting a control specimen of an elk we killed during hunting season and left the ribcage, spinal column, and pelvis after removing the quarters and boning out the rest. I returned to this specimen three times over a period of 6 months to observe and photograph its condition.

 

These specific finds began in early 2013 when my research partner found several deer in one location which had been killed, disarticulated, eaten, and the bones stacked. The bones were stacked in front of a log; as if whatever had sat down, ate its meal, and stacked the bones in front of it.

 

Original bone stack as found by my research partner.

 

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Bones collected from stack.

 

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Tooth impressions found on a couple of the rib bones.

 

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Some of the references used in our research:

Foust, Jennifer L. 2007. The Use of Tooth Pit and Tooth/Jaw Measurements to Identify Carnivore Taxa Responsible for Damage on Scavenged Bone. Master of Arts Thesis. University of Montana.

 

Murmann DC, Brumit PC, Schrader BA, Senn DR. 2006. A Comparison of Animal Jaws and Bite Mark Patterns. Journal of Forensic Science 51(4):846-860.

 

 

...More to come.

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Guest OntarioSquatch

I think you may be onto something here. The observation of deer bones being stacked in a pile has some history and credibility behind it. The place where you're conducting your investigations has history and credibility as well. I'd be interesting in reading any other observations you've made.

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SWWASAS

Look forward to seeing more.     Since that area is basically my research area too, is there anything in particular you are looking for that would aid your research?      Bone pile signs or anything similar?    Feel free to PM me if there is anything you might be interested in locating.  

Edited by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

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Airdale

This seems such an obvious direction of research, even to a non-scientist like myself, yet I've not read anything about it being used in the study of this subject. Good luck to you and your son BTW, I'll be following your research with great interest.

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TedSallis

Great work.  Really interested to see further evidence.  It's great to see something innovative, yet utterly logical, being done in this field.

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Guest KY Squatcher

Fantastic work, I look forward to reading more. I may even give it a try. Thanks for posting.

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WSA

Wait. You guys haven't seen a Sasquatch, but you are curious about the evidence? Well, who'd a thunk it?

 

Bravo.

 

Scientists. Doing science. Amazing.

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BigTreeWalker

I did look at Sasfooty’s pic of the apple. The first image shows what I see as human-like flat incisor marks, just as we are seeing in our research. However, without any measurement comparisons (this is not a statement against your evidence Sasfooty), it could very well be human incisor marks.

 

As to your question SWWSP, I will be continuing to post the evidence we have found and are investigating. One reason I am posting this information is that there are only three of us and we can only cover so much territory. The best a person can do is keep their eyes open for bones, and then take a close look to see if they can see any impressions. What we found was not hidden but was in some pretty out of the way places. I do appreciate everyone’s interest and enthusiasm.

 

On 8-23-14 my son and I discovered, at the bottom of a 20 year old clear-cut, an adult cow elk skull. Then, further along an old skidder road, a bone stack which we later called elk kill number 1 (EK#1). We had been checking out the sound of a stump being pulled apart about 200yds to the east of this area. We determined it was probably a bear we heard. We did find the stump but couldn’t tell much from it. So we decided to cross a small meadow, which had a spring flowing from the lower end, and continue back up the hill toward camp when we found the bones. The skull had some trauma to the nasal area. When I talked to our research partner later he said the deer skulls he found also had trauma to the nasal area. I don’t have any pictures of the deer skulls.

 

The bone stack was about fifty yards from the skull, behind a huckleberry bush, close to a stump. It appeared that the individual had sat done on the mound of dirt at the base of the stump to consume its meal. I looked at the pile and discovered some of the bones had distinctive teeth marks in them. This reminded my of the deer bones my research partner had shown to me a month or so earlier. Then what really caught my attention was that there were two different size flat incisor impressions in one of the rib bones. The smaller ones were much closer to human size. I concluded that possibly an adult and a juvenile had been feeding on this elk. I collected some of the bones for further examination.

 

Damaged elk skull.

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Bone Stack

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Bones Collected

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Rib bone with two different sized impressions.

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Impressions of two flat ended incisors from juvenile.

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Incisor bite through, shows shape of incisor..

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As a further note, we decided from the freshness of the bones that the kill had occurred sometime in late spring of 2014. The flesh that was still present on the bones looked like dried jerky and had seen little to no rain. The bones were white and clean with no green algae on them which happens to bones in the PNW after a winter of dampness.

 

We returned to this site at the end of October 2014. We were trying to discover the original kill site but didn’t have any luck. The interesting thing was that the bones had not been disturbed by smaller animals and looked the same as we had found them except for the ones I had collected. I find this odd that the bones had not been scattered.

 

We did find a hunter killed elk from a previous year about 40yds behind EK#1. The pelvis and the lower leg bones had saw marks on them and the rest of the bones that we could find were scattered all over the area. These bones were green from algae and had small rodent teeth scores on them; which is one of the reasons bones disappear so fast in the PNW. (If you’re thinking rodent for the cause of the above impressions, think 1/8†double scores for a rodent.) This area being close to a spring, in an area with smaller fir trees for cover, seems to be a good ambush point for both human and non-human hunters.

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WSA

You beat me to that thought about the rodent incisors, yep. We all have probably seen rodent gnawed bones or antlers. Those chomps out of those ribs are in a another class, to my eye. Those are some nice clean cuts, and the arc of the tooth of the critter that bit them is very distinct to me. Just speaking as a lay person, I would think "canid" is struck from the list of possibles on that evidence alone.

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Sasfooty

I did look at Sasfooty’s pic of the apple. The first image shows what I see as human-like flat incisor marks, just as we are seeing in our research. However, without any measurement comparisons (this is not a statement against your evidence Sasfooty), it could very well be human incisor marks.

 

No offense taken, BTW, but I'm confident that no human made those marks. The widest teeth marks were slightly wider than my upper front teeth, which are a little wider than normal.

 

I had picked up all the apples that were on the ground just before dark that night. The cows got the bad ones & I brought the good ones in the house. There was no one here but Hubby & I & he didn't go back out after I brought the apples in. This house can't be seen from the road & we have no close neighbors. The closest one would have had to walk a quarter mile to get to the tree, & they would never have been sneaking around here at night. They're good neighbors that tend to their own business & have no children at home.

 

The BFs know that I don't mind & have never been shy about taking fruit & vegetables from the garden. I heard some of them in the yard that night & found the apple early the next morning. The young ones almost always leave parts of fruit, but the larger ones don't. It was the second time the young ones had left pieces of fruit under the tree, but I didn't keep the others. I only kept this one because Melba had told me she was planning another study & if I found anything else she might want it.

 

Your pictures of the little piles of bones are familiar. Hubby had filleted two big catfish one evening & left the scraps in a 5 gallon bucket beside the porch. The next morning there was a little pile of fish bones stacked on the porch. It looked like someone had sat on the steps, cleaned all the remaining meat off the bones, & stacked them in a neat pile. I can't remember if the skin had been eaten or if the bones had just been cleaned, but everything was neat, the bucket hadn't been turned over. It was obvious that it hadn't been an animal that did it.

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SWWASAS

Bigtreewalker:   Since I am working the same area,  if I do find bones that seem to fit the pattern,  do you want me to leave them in situ and contact you so you can examine the site and collect them?    I would guess that the manner of stacking could have some significance so you would probably want to be the one to document and collect the bones.       Certainly most kill finds results in scatter rather than stacking, so that aspect is unique.    If you could contact me with here with private message indicating what you would like me to do I would be happy to help out of you are interested.    I did have a case where a carcass was "given" to me in that it was placed right by the drivers door when I was out in the field.    But that carcass was not disassembled as are the ones in your pictures.     So I think it more likely was a kill made by some other predator that was placed by my truck door.   Of course I cannot know what placed it, only that something put it by my truck when I was hiking around.    But at the time I thought it strange that any predator would approach my truck at the side of a fairly busy county road (Dole Valley Road) and drop a carcass right by the drivers door. 

Edited by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

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Guest Divergent1

Fascinating stuff, have you thought about looking at the research regarding bones found in Neanderthal caves for comparison? 

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BigTreeWalker

Fascinating stuff, have you thought about looking at the research regarding bones found in Neanderthal caves for comparison?

Yes, I think we may be looking into some of that in our research paper. I did the original analysis, measurements, and data compilation. My research partner is doing the comparative research delving into other connections and possibilities, while trying to narrow down the most likely suspects.

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daveedoe

 Great work BTW.  :fan:

 

Is it true a species be identified by just a tooth?

 

Can you tell from the bite marks if the creature is omnivorous or carnivorous?

 

Would be fantastic if your research revealed an unknown creature.  :o

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