Ketchum Bigfoot Dna Update

[Sasfooty]

LeafTalker, on 18 Sept 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

 

 I had heard that the contaminant was human DNA, supposedly from the researchers who collected the samples (many of whom were quite experienced in the field and knew very well how to collect samples without contaminating them). 

 

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that the contamination argument has shifted in this way?

 

 

That story about the researchers contaminating the samples doesn't hold water, because we sent a sample of our own DNA with the hair samples.

 

And no, you aren't the only one that thinks it's strange.

[LeafTalker]

That's really interesting, Sasfooty. Was that how the request for samples went out? Were people explicitly asked to submit their own DNA along with any samples they sent?

 

If so, wow. It shows that 1) someone was thinking ahead and 2) there was a foolproof way to "backtrack" and figure out where any possible human contamination could have come from, if any were discovered.

 

In the enormous zeal of all the critics to discredit Dr. Ketchum's work, why was this "backtracking" never done? (Or was it done?) It would've been a very simple matter to substantiate these (earlier?) claims of human DNA contamination.

 

Or is that why the claims have shifted and now focus on supposed animal DNA contamination? Because any attempt to pin contamination on any submitter would've failed?

 

Jayjeti, your questions are great, including the one asking who -- if anybody -- has actually examined each of the samples at each of the 12 labs to determine they're contaminated. Also agree that a claim that all the samples at all 12 labs are contaminated is very.................perplexing. 

[bipedalist]

Ketchum herself after critiques by several scientists and many in the community,  claimed she would resubmit the samples to four other labs or professionals.  It never happened.  That tells me all I need to know.  Promises, promises........

[jayjeti]

Those are all Melba Ketchum's claims. There isn't anything to suggest that she's telling the truth about any of them.

 

Here's a link on how her paper turned out http://doubtfulnews.com/2013/02/breaking-bio-on-the-ketchum-sasquatch-sequences/

 

 

Doubtful News is a skeptics website that only writes to debunk bigfoot when writing on that subject.  I've tried to post comments there in the past on some of the errors in articles but I found they never post comments that counters their objective.  I watched the video that the article was based on which was a bunch of giggly students and one jobless graduate, and it was difficult to fully understand what he was talking about with the sample having all those different animals.  He talked like there was only one sample.  There were multiple samples sent to multiple university labs for testing, but the video is a bunch of giggly kids talking about a sample being contaninated with all these different animals.  Many samples were sent to Dr. Ketchum, and preliminary tests showed some were from known animals and they didn't persue those any futher.  Does her paper mention samples that came back as known animals also?  I don't know.

Edited September 19, 2015 by jayjeti

[Sasfooty]

That's really interesting, Sasfooty. Was that how the request for samples went out? Were people explicitly asked to submit their own DNA along with any samples they sent?

 

We talked on the phone before I mailed the samples & she said she was asking for DNA from all the researchers to rule out contamination from them. She said to use a Q-tip & get a sample from inside my mouth, put it in a plastic bag, & include it with the hair sample. Later, she told me that my sample didn't contain any of my DNA.

[Rockape]

Hey Sassy! You submitted samples to the Ketchum study? You might have mentioned that way back but I don't remember. Cool. So, what is your honest assessment of the Ketchum study? And what did your samples show? Are you at liberty to speak about it all?

[LeafTalker]

 

That's really interesting, Sasfooty. Was that how the request for samples went out? Were people explicitly asked to submit their own DNA along with any samples they sent?

 

We talked on the phone before I mailed the samples & she said she was asking for DNA from all the researchers to rule out contamination from them. She said to use a Q-tip & get a sample from inside my mouth, put it in a plastic bag, & include it with the hair sample. Later, she told me that my sample didn't contain any of my DNA.

 

Oh! So I guess the acquisition technique (for getting the DNA sample provider's own DNA) isn't fool-proof. But if Dr. Ketchum were keeping track of where the samples came from (as she obviously was), and a question arose about possible human contamination of a particular sample, she would have known where to go to request a second human DNA sample to test against, if the one supplied with the sample didn't work. So the failure of that particular swab to yield a testable sample of your DNA would not have been a show-stopper, by any means. 

 

Thanks for that info, Sasfooty!

[SWWASAS]

I wonder how secure the samples were that were sent to Ketchum and those she collected herself? Kept under lock and key? The fact that some were a mixture of DNA of several common animals is very puzzling. One could see human researchers contaminating samples they submitted with their own DNA or a single sample of an unknown animal being some known animal but a mixture of known animals in the same sample screams purposeful contamination to me. If so by who? Doubtful that Ketchum would do it. That leaves others with access to her lab or others at the testing labs. I find that strange. With her history of bad business practices it could very well have been a current or former employee that she had not paid their salaries due to her frequent bankruptcies trying to sabatage her work.

Edited September 19, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[Branco]

Hello JDL.  Those things shouldn't really impact the science her and her team did.  As far as the intimate encounter, she's denied that, claiming it was made up.

She made it up, or someone else made it up? 

[LeafTalker]

@SWWASP: In my view (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this), it's more likely the sabotage happened at the labs doing the "independent" testing. Once it was clear there was no known match for the DNA -- meaning the results could confirm the existence of a being the government (or some other well-funded interests) doesn't want people to know about -- those labs would feel it was in their best interests to tamper with the results. 

 

Good question, Branco.... 

Edited September 19, 2015 by LeafTalker

[Sasfooty]

Sorry, Leafy. I didn't make myself clear about the Q-tip sample. What I should have said was that the BF hair sample that I sent wasn't contaminated with my DNA when she compared it to my sample from the Q-tip. (That still didn't sound right, but maybe it's a little better.)

 

Rockape, I guess the NDA has expired by now & it's OK to talk about it. I had two different samples. One was extremely fine white "hair", & the other was black.

 

I found the white hair in the garden, about 4' high, stuck to a pod of okra one morning. I had heard them out at the apple tree, close to the okra, the night before. There were 3 little ones & a couple of adults. I had gotten a picture of a little white juvenile & was convinced that the white hair was from him. When I first found it, it smelled like somebody that's never had a bath. It was awful. I sent some to Southern Yahoo & he said it looked like some kind of synthetic fiber, but because of how I had found it, I sent it to be tested anyway. Melba said it was the nastiest synthetic fiber she ever looked at through a microscope, & didn't include it in the study. I still don't know where it came from, why it stunk so bad, or how it got on the okra, but I still think the BFs had something to do with it being there. Maybe from a stuffed toy that they had, assuming that they don't grow synthetic hair.

 

The other was from a big clump of black hair that my son & I found found hanging from underneath the limb of a fallen tree. One evening, we hid in an old camper, that was sitting out behind the house. I was listening with the bionic ear, & he was looking through the night vision, toward the west, at a place where we thought the BFs were crossing the fence when they came here. There was one that ran around whistling like a whippoorwill from dark until daylight every night, & before long we heard the whistle coming toward us. There was just a little strip of orange left in the sky, but it was enough to see a figure moving around near the fallen tree, where they crossed the fence. Just as we saw the figure, the whistling stopped & it was gone.

 

The next morning early, we went over to the place where we had seen the figure & looked around. It was near the railroad fence & dirt was piled up on the RR side to almost the top of the fence. They could walk up there & just step down into the pasture, but the tree had fallen there & they had to duck under a limb that was about 5' high. Hanging on that limb was the clump of black hair. It was dry & fluffy & had an earthy smell. There was no livestock in that pasture & hadn't been any in about a month. Also, we had about 5 inches of rain a few days before. The hairs were from 2-5 inches long & just slightly more coarse that my hair. I pulled it off the limb with a stick & stuffed it into a plastic bag. Later, I put it into an envelope because the researcher said it shouldn't be kept in plastic. I still have quite a bit left.

 

When Southern Yahoo told me about the study, Melba had almost finished the tests on all the other samples that she had & was planning to send them to the other labs in a few days. He asked her if she could use another sample & because of where mine came from, she said that she would like to have it. I had to hurry to get it there in time to be sent with the others, & she didn't have time to do her tests on it before they were sent. She just looked at it under the microscope, said it looked good & sent some with the other samples. A couple of weeks later, she told me that when she did the mitochondrial test, it wasn't human like the others & she didn't think it was BF. I didn't hear anymore from her for a little over a year, but one day a friend told me that he had asked her about it & she told him that it came back with the same strange nuDNA as the others that she thought were BF. I called her & she confirmed that it was definitely the same nuDNA as the other BF samples.

[MIB]

Argh.  There was no sabotage and minimal contamination.

 

There was deliberate lying by Ketchum.  The people in her "camp" were under NDA but information was leaking.   She told different lies to different people to see which ones became public as a means to identify and plug the leaks.   It worked, however, it had farther reaching consequences than she planned for when the lies took on lives of their own rather than ending when she corked the leaks.  "oops."

 

The handling of the samples was good.   Cleanup was effective.   There was no contamination to speak of.  What there was was sample degradation. Many of the samples were older and had been exposed to the environment for extended periods of time causing them to break down.   There was also a flaw in the extraction / replication / sequencing methodology chosen.   Taken together, those produced comparatively short DNA segments that had to be reassembled (by computer) for comparison ... this was done badly.   This is where the apparent weird DNA popped up.   It was not real, it was computer-generated during sequencing because the assumptions made in the "next gen" sequencing process were too optimistic.

 

There were plenty of red flags for a careful researcher willing to see them.   Melba reported 109 of 109 samples testing positive for bigfoot.   Not possible since a hunk of Justin's bear was included.   That's why she asked him to soak it in bleach to destroy the rest ... confirmation of what it really was contradicted the claims she was making.     I do, however, believe there were real bigfoot samples within the pool that was tested.

 

Melba was trying to force the data to support a pre-determined conclusion rather than letting the data lead and following where it went.    Plain and simple in hindsight.

 

Ya'll ought to know this if you've read the Ketchum threads, followed the analysis, and listened to the youtube vids.  I'm kind of disappointed that you've gone this far into the conversation without paying attention to what has already been shown.

 

MIB

[Rockape]

Thanks Sassy. Have you tried sending any of the hair to other people to have it checked? I think there is a guy who specializes in hair analysis. Can't recall his name but I think he is out of Texas also and BF friendly. I'm sure SouthernYahoo would know.

[LeafTalker]

That's way cool, Sasfooty. You have some great adventures.  

 

Didn't realize you were under an NDA! And now I get what you were saying about your own DNA sample. Thanks!

[chelefoot]

No nuDNA testing was done on hair samples.