SWWASAS Posted July 20, 2018 BFF Patron Posted July 20, 2018 Thanks for that reminder about Koko. That she understood and expressed grief perfectly reinforces my contention that BF may be practicing care of their dead. Apparently with sentient creatures, grief and caring for the dead follows. We are often asked where are the BF bodies as if we should be finding them laying around like dead bears. Well first of all, finding a dead bear from natural events is very rare. There are two vectors resulting in dead BF. Accidents like lighting, tree falls, volcanic eruptions, or avalanche. These are rare events even for the large numbers of humans exposed to them but they do happen. The other vector is natural disease or old age. The place where these two vectors can converge again, is if BF tend their dead. BF killed by lighting would be gathered up and stashed next to those who die of natural causes. Those converging vectors probably give us the highest chance of finding a BF body or skeleton. If BF cares for their dead, stashes them in secret locations, it is no wonder that we do not find bodies. Perhaps the key to finding BF remains is what happened with the Sediba. Look for the stashing places and eventually find one that has been used as a burial stash will turn up. For sure with the woods full of scavengers, on several levels, even down to those who specialize in consuming bones, it is a race to find a body unless, BF stashes the bodies with the purpose to prevent access by scavengers or better yet attempts to slow deterioration of the body. As with the humans in the Himalaya, caves at or above the tree line would be the best BF could be expected to do. That would allow access most of the year yet still be close to freezing in caves or rock cairns.
hiflier Posted July 20, 2018 Author Posted July 20, 2018 Back in 2015 I joined a spelunkers Forum and laid out exactly why I became a member. I asked point blank about BF use of caves, or any animal for that matter. These guys know their caves and their various groups called "grottos" are in every state. They go in and go in deep into every nook and cranny mapping these environments. If anyone could find a burial cave it would be them. My guess? It just might be a place with a rock in front of the hole used for an entrance. In other words something that looks quite natural when it is in place and so no one would suspect there to be any entrance at all. IF that was the case then the find would be incredible
SWWASAS Posted July 20, 2018 BFF Patron Posted July 20, 2018 The cave of the Sediba find was well known to local cavers. Dr Berger had instructed his local caver friends to start close in and look for bones that might be from the Australopithecus This cave had been explored before although the passages to the Sediba find chamber were so narrow, only very small men or women could get through them. In the chamber, while it was remarkable geologically the floor was flat and quite uninteresting. Except these cavers had worked for Dr Berger as amateur volunteers and knew what they were looking for. The find started because one portion of lower jaw with a few teeth was sitting on the floor at the edge of the cave. They took pictures and got out of the cave without touching anything. They called Dr Berger at 9 PM and said we are coming over, you are going to want to see what we have found. Berger initially recognized it was primate and nearly human concluding it was similar to his find some miles away. It was not but it was a related and a new species. So while cavers may be very familiar with caves containing bones, are they educated enough to know what they are looking at? Also cavers tend to explore the interesting ones. Some mundane minor cave may not have attracted someone who knew some bone was interesting. Lava tubes can be pretty much anyplace in volcanic geology. I recall one person who died in Washington because they fell into one from an opening on top and could not get out. No one knew that even existed. There have to been many more that Westerners simply are not aware of. Too bad it has been so long since NA tribes inhabited their territory. They probably knew of many places that Europeans have never found. After all they had thousands of years in their territories to find things. You are right in that a log, large rock or whatever could be moved by BF to cover an opening.
gigantor Posted July 21, 2018 Admin Posted July 21, 2018 3 hours ago, SWWASAS said: Also cavers tend to explore the interesting ones Beginners do. The experienced cavers want to find new ones to map and get credit for their discovery.
SWWASAS Posted July 21, 2018 BFF Patron Posted July 21, 2018 The Sediba find was first thought to be the result of predators. Some large cat dragging the victims deep into the cave for a leisurely meal. But as I mentioned the only bones other than human were that one owl. So that made the predator theory unlikely. In the case of BF and caves, I think it unlikely that BF would be found in known and explored caves. The skull would be obviously not human, or even it if could pass for human, cavers would report it to authorities. Caves are not common in the PNW as they are usually found in limestone formations. Lava tubes are common and many may be totally unknown to humans. The dark divide in Washington state is a BF hot spot and geologically is the sort of lava flow that often produces tubes. Perhaps the association of the two is not a coincidence?
hiflier Posted July 21, 2018 Author Posted July 21, 2018 14 hours ago, gigantor said: Beginners do. The experienced cavers want to find new ones to map and get credit for their discovery. QFT. The experienced spelunkers are always on the lookout for not just new caves but also newfound accesses inside the ones they frequent. The Star Cave is one of those examples of an unbelievable find. 1 hour ago, SWWASAS said: The dark divide in Washington state is a BF hot spot and geologically is the sort of lava flow that often produces tubes. Perhaps the association of the two is not a coincidence? It sure is an interesting location with a lot of history. It is also a very tough area to explore. I could see the possibility for caves as well as the high over-looks of flowing water that may suggest more in the way of nesting sites?
SWWASAS Posted July 21, 2018 BFF Patron Posted July 21, 2018 While I have pretty much given up on seeing a BF from the air, this discussion makes me realize that while seeing BF may not be practical, I sure could look for caves or lava tubes from the air. Lava tubes make streaks of different surface vegetation through the surrounding normal vegetation. The reason in the PNW is that lava tubes do not allow tall tree root systems to develop on top of one, so in the case of Ape Cave, the vegetation directly on the lava tube is a lighter green than the surrounding big Douglas Fir trees. Collapsed roofs of lava tubes may also be observable from the air. Take a look at Ape Cave on Google Earth and you can see what I mean. I can also look at cliff sides for cave formations without being a mountain goat. I should go take another look at Ape Cave from the air to refresh my memory on how it looks from the air. I just remembered bats are a good indicator of caves present. Scan an area at sunset, and you might see bats streaming out of occupied caves. A stream of bats is near 100 percent certainty a cave is there. I doubt that BF would inhabit a bat cave but they might of in the past. In a way we have hijacked this thread but it seems that hashing out field methods cannot hurt. As skeptics like to point out, people have been in the field looking a long time without much success. So thinking outside the box might be what we need to be doing.
Twist Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 I’d venture a guess that looking into caves or lava tubes as a means for body dumping is a valid one. There has to be an explanation for the lack of BF carcasses found. Logically it is because they dispose of the bodies. Let’s find their trash can and thus help find them. As explained, Spelunkers are already doing this. Let’s hope one comes across a remarkable find they cannot explain. 1
hiflier Posted July 22, 2018 Author Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Twist said: I’d venture a guess that looking into caves or lava tubes as a means for body dumping is a valid one. There has to be an explanation for the lack of BF carcasses found. Logically it is because they dispose of the bodies. Let’s find their trash can and thus help find them. As explained, Spelunkers are already doing this. Let’s hope one comes across a remarkable find they cannot explain. A good thoughtful post, Twist. BF and caves do have a history in anecdotal reports and have for quite a long time when adding in the stories from NA's. 2 hours ago, SWWASAS said: In a way we have hijacked this thread but it seems that hashing out field methods cannot hurt. As skeptics like to point out, people have been in the field looking a long time without much success. So thinking outside the box might be what we need to be doing. In a way it is ALWAYS what we should be doing and many do as the track record of empty expeditions weigh heavier on lack of contact or evidence. There are some successes too if one includes member sightings/experiences and some of the signs supposedly left out there to interpret. And look, my friend, if flying is what you are going for I am the least one to inform you of the risks so just take 'er easy and be safe. And the way this thread has been 'hijacked' has been informative and mostly because anyone starting up a local SRN also needs a good knowledge of the terrain and features in their area, knowledge of the road layout, forestry road layout, and other things like large culverts under highways and other pinch points like bridges over ravines. And yes, caves. This isn't easy stuff if one wants to be up on possible ways a Sasquatch could slip through an area being patrolled- crawling or otherwise. Edited July 22, 2018 by hiflier
SWWASAS Posted July 22, 2018 BFF Patron Posted July 22, 2018 I would be remiss in not mentioning another perfectly good way to protect a body in mountainous regions. Simply putting them in a talus slope and covering them with rock would prevent scavengers getting to them, Another reason to look at this method is that high mountain regions with little soil, humans cannot bury their dead and often use rock cairns to inter them. Since BF is not a known tool user and unlikely to have shovels and forest soil is difficult to dig because of root systems, it would make sense that BF use plentiful loose material like talus rock to cover their dead. The methods as with humans are likely regional and highly related to geology. Another possible clue is that for some reason, BF sightings are very common in old rock quarries. BF has to have a reason to be there since lack of cover there exposes them. I doubt that it is selection of rocks to throw. Perhaps abandoned rock quarries become grave yards? When I run into one in the field I give it a good look for rocks that seem to be stacked.
hiflier Posted July 23, 2018 Author Posted July 23, 2018 And then there is the report about a witness seeing a BF moving large rocks in a quarry to mine for rats. Always thought that was an interesting story. It is these kinds of features that the wary SRN researcher needs to be aware of when initiating the search of the roads around a sighting that has been called in. There is so much that only a local and his or her fellow researchers would know by making an intimate study of the region they are covering. An "I know this area like the back of my hand" kind of study. Different members of a local cell could research the vicinity closest to them and then have a meeting of the minds and tell each other what each one have explored. Stick the details on a large topo map and everyone gets a copy. If a call comes in then each one will have a reference for where everyone is going AND ant least an idea of a likely escape route a BF would take if its direction of travel can be acquired from the witness. Boots on the ground is the only way, folks, and it will take time to get all of this combined into a program for each group. A year? Two? Heck, it has been over 50 so hopefully time is on everyone's side. So do not rush anything. It will probably take a year just to diligently find the right people.
Twist Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 A year or two you are saying, is that to say you are currently putting together a group in your area, beginning to organize?
hiflier Posted July 23, 2018 Author Posted July 23, 2018 Yes, I will be. And even though Maine is a large state and sightings are rare I would still like to connect with, or find, other Sasquatch enthusiasts to talk with and bring up this idea to. And it will not happen overnight but I'm a patient person and so will take the time to see who is out there and where. Personally, I think there will be those who will take to this approach if it means having a better chance of documenting a sighting by increasing the possibility of getting a follow up photo or video of the creature. I mean why not, right? As I said sightings are rare and so most of the time will be spent in the planning of just how to conduct an interview as well as working out the terrain details in each person's area.
NCBFr Posted July 25, 2018 Posted July 25, 2018 On 7/20/2018 at 6:40 PM, hiflier said: Back in 2015 I joined a spelunkers Forum and laid out exactly why I became a member. I asked point blank about BF use of caves, or any animal for that matter. These guys know their caves and their various groups called "grottos" are in every state. They go in and go in deep into every nook and cranny mapping these environments. If anyone could find a burial cave it would be them. Well, just dont leave us hanging. How did they respond?
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