wiiawiwb Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 Terrain association is one of the best ways to navigate if the area you are in has even subtle streams, rises, hills, or flat areas. It helps to utilize other means as well as ranger beads which will provide a reasonable measure of distance. A lot goes out the door when the area is thick with blow down or flooded areas not indicated on the map. Wilderness navigation is much like a carpenter who utilizes many tools. There is the favorite tool and there are other ones designed to refine, help out when one breaks, or ceases to be useful. Map first, compass second, and last on the totem pole is GPS.
norseman Posted October 16, 2018 Admin Posted October 16, 2018 59 minutes ago, Caenus said: Uh, I beg to differ. If you have ever taken a basic land nav course, you would know that you can reach a specific destination with compass and map. With a proper compass and a known stride distance you can walk within feet of a specific location. More accurate than gps. Have you ever heard of Ranger Beads? I once participated in a course in the military that gave you a map and compass. To pass you had to walk miles through a forest in order to find a field full of pickets. On each one of those pickets was a number. If your navigation with that compas and map took you to the wrong picket...you fail...within meters. Terrain orientation will tell you where you are (if you have a map). Find your location, shoot an azimuth and walk. A known starting position and a compass with known or estimated distance of travel ups the likelihood of finding your position and getting you where you need to go. Look, I feel like I am saying this a lot, but I’m sorry If I’m perceived as a jerk. If you are going to be in the field with these things, know your basic field craft. Otherwise, you have zero chance of finding anything, even your own fourth point of contact, google earth will not find it for you. Your right in theory. And I have used Ranger beads and taken nav courses. The problem in the PacNW is obstacles. If your crawling through vine maple its hard to keep a pace count. You start guessing.... And its ridiculously hard just to shoot an azimuth and follow it. Its not as easy as hitting an obstacle turn 90 degrees East walk 100 steps, turn north walk how may steps it is to clear the obstacle and then turn 90 degrees West and walk another 100 steps and wallah your back on your route of march. The shit is just thick and steep and you squeeze through where you can and hope for the best. Its hard to keep track. Supposedly lots of patrols got lost in the Nam for this very reason, and paid a hefty price when they tried to call in arty shields against the enemy. The best one to know in the PacNW is trianglation. If you know your declination and you know the local peaks. Climb to a overlook and shoot two azimuths to each known peak from your position. Draw the same degree lines on your map off of each peak and where the two lines intersect on the map is where you are standing. Caenus, I think you should start a thread just on land navigation. Maybe it will help save a Bigfoot researchers life someday. 1
hiflier Posted October 16, 2018 Author Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, norseman said: Caenus, I think you should start a thread just on land navigation. Maybe it will help save a Bigfoot researchers life someday. A good idea. One Spring I got fooled by a creek for a couple of seconds because it was bigger because of the Spring rains. Then I saw that it was flowing the wrong way and so was just a swollen feeder. I crossed it and kept going until I reached the one I was aiming for. It does help greatly when you know your area of research that's for sure. An up to date topo is worth its weight in gold but on the ground seasonal changes can and sometime do give moments to pause and think. As an update to the SRN? The meeting I was working on for this past weekend didn't materialize. Couple of folks had stuff come up and the rest didn't check in after the notification. So.....called off. I will try again and hope that people's schedules will settle down some to maybe get together. Like I said it is going to take time and patience- and I am willing to give both. I may even run the ad again. Edited October 16, 2018 by hiflier
MIB Posted October 16, 2018 Moderator Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) (deleted .. Norseman said it better than I did.) Edited October 16, 2018 by MIB
wiiawiwb Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 59 minutes ago, norseman said: The best one to know in the PacNW is trianglation. If you know your declination and you know the local peaks. Climb to a overlook and shoot two azimuths to each known peak from your position. Draw the same degree lines on your map off of each peak and where the two lines intersect on the map is where you are standing. Triangulating your position by being atop a mountain of elevated area with a view is classic way to know where you are and where you need to go. Some areas of the country don't offer elevated areas by which to do so or the summit will be without a view. At that point, navigation by map and terrain association is the method I'll choose. I ran across this article on an internet search some years ago and it is the best discussion I've read about land navigation and terrain association: http://www.adkhighpeaksfoundation.org/adkhpf/navagation.php
Caenus Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 8 hours ago, hiflier said: A good idea. One Spring I got fooled by a creek for a couple of seconds because it was bigger because of the Spring rains. Then I saw that it was flowing the wrong way and so was just a swollen feeder. I crossed it and kept going until I reached the one I was aiming for. It does help greatly when you know your area of research that's for sure. An up to date topo is worth its weight in gold but on the ground seasonal changes can and sometime do give moments to pause and think. As an update to the SRN? The meeting I was working on for this past weekend didn't materialize. Couple of folks had stuff come up and the rest didn't check in after the notification. So.....called off. I will try again and hope that people's schedules will settle down some to maybe get together. Like I said it is going to take time and patience- and I am willing to give both. I may even run the ad again. I’m getting an idea of the challenges the PNW folks are dealing with from that. It would definitely make navigation cumbersome and it is no wonder so many people get lost there. I’m amazed that so many hikers get lost and disappear here! Sorry to hear that Hiflier. My contactees here all flaked out as well.
hiflier Posted October 16, 2018 Author Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Caenus said: My contactees here all flaked out as well. I still think the idea has merit and I also had a good hunch that it wasn't going to happen overnight. Researchers like yourself are in it for the long haul and so am I and I do not see developing an SRN group is any different in that respect. Maybe shutting off a phone and pulling the battery is too foreign and scary for some folks- especially the younger crowd as they may be just too uncomfortable being unplugged. It does leave a real-time world behind that they are more used to so I cannot say that I blame them. I also think that when they read and better understand what the ramifications of discovery might be and why it just isn't just a hobby they get very nervous. Most of them in the beginning had a hard time understanding that the plan did not involve going out into the woods and looking for a Sasquatch somewhere. It took some of them quite a while to lose that concept. I think 'Finding Bigfoot' and its TV methodology in the field has been fairly ingrained in most of those potential SRN candidates. It is an assumption of course but the dialogue from nearly all of them showed that they could not shake the idea of hunting for a Sasquatch with a group of people camping out somewhere on a weekend and combing the forest looking for signs of the creature. The idea behind an SRN seems to be a very foreign concept to most and it takes a while for it to sink in. Lets face it, nothing may come in for years but when and if a call does come in any spring into action will more than likely be over in about an hour and a half or two at most. For the most part it probably isn'tt a very exciting or attractive venture to the younger folks. Edited October 16, 2018 by hiflier
SWWASAS Posted October 16, 2018 BFF Patron Posted October 16, 2018 It just occurred to me that between sightings the SRN could conduct exercises to keep up interest. . Pick a member, have him go to some location, have him develop a simulated sighting report based that location and phone it to the group, develop a plan and go find him. Have him make some footprints to find and have him hide from searchers. If not successful debrief and figure out why. Tracking is an acquired skill. I am not very good at it, probably because I am not a hunter. If your members happen to blunder into a BF during an exercise all the better. Certainly conducting a lost hiker search would be good practice too. We seem to have them on a weekly basis locally. If you know what you are doing, and are appropriately equipped, you are likely welcome as a volunteer in most venues. They really do not want someone who is likely to get lost themselves.
norseman Posted October 16, 2018 Admin Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Caenus said: I’m getting an idea of the challenges the PNW folks are dealing with from that. It would definitely make navigation cumbersome and it is no wonder so many people get lost there. I’m amazed that so many hikers get lost and disappear here! Sorry to hear that Hiflier. My contactees here all flaked out as well. Its horrible....stay in Arizona! And the worst part is? Everytime you bump something or brush up against something? You take a shower. Wet!
hiflier Posted October 16, 2018 Author Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, hiflier said: Most of them in the beginning had a hard time understanding that the plan did not involve going out into the woods and looking for a Sasquatch somewhere. It took some of them quite a while to lose that concept. I think 'Finding Bigfoot' and its TV methodology in the field has been fairly ingrained in most of those potential SRN candidates. It is an assumption of course but the dialogue from nearly all of them showed that they could not shake the idea of hunting for a Sasquatch with a group of people camping out somewhere on a weekend and combing the forest looking for signs of the creature. The idea behind an SRN seems to be a very foreign concept to most and it takes a while for it to sink in Does the above explain the SRN well enough? The quote below is not what the SRN is all about: 41 minutes ago, SWWASAS said: Tracking is an acquired skill. I am not very good at it, probably because I am not a hunter. If your members happen to blunder into a BF during an exercise all the better. Certainly conducting a lost hiker search would be good practice too. We seem to have them on a weekly basis locally. If you know what you are doing, and are appropriately equipped, you are likely welcome as a volunteer in most venues. They really do not want someone who is likely to get lost themselves. No one is going to be going into the woods. That is what is so different about the SRN and I think it is because the concept IS so different people miss the SRN's purpose and aim. If I were to write an SRN's mission statement it would go like this: "The purpose of the SRN is to have drivers with video or photo cameras patrol roads around a sighting report location with the aim of getting photos or videos of the creature crossing a road in its attempt escape the local area. Any results will go to science." That is all an SRN group is for and will do. Repeat, no one will be going into the woods. If a driver gets photos or videos then the point of even having an SRN has succeeded. Afterwards everyone in the group will get together and look at the photos or watch the videos. This is not to say that the group while in the field wouldn't pursue the creature by heading it off at a further road with cameras at the ready. And even if that kind of pursuit happens no one will be going into the woods. Whatever photo or video evidence is acquired will be slated to go to a reasonably local scientist- NOT YouTube, not Bigfoot Evidence, not the BFRO- but to an honest to goodness scientist. PERIOD. Edited October 16, 2018 by hiflier
Guest southwestjess Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 Hiflier, I’m new here and I’ve been slowly making my way through this thread for a while. That your vision includes driving only I only just now understood, and, although not as exciting and sexy of an idea as going backpacking in the wilderness, it really makes it more accessible to those who are willing, but don’t have the skills for those kind of adventures. I’m not a researcher. I got interested in this subject as a young mom. I’m an older mom now and just don’t have the time or knowledge to spend lots of time camping. We camp ad a family but I don’t know how to use a map and compass. In another 10 years I’ll be out of this stage of life, and may have been able to read a library of books by then, but still won’t have the skills to be a “researcher” as I see the term used here. But what you’re describing I might actually be able to do. I’m in Arizona, so out of your area and no help to you really now or in the future. But props for moving forward with your vision.
hiflier Posted October 16, 2018 Author Posted October 16, 2018 Hi southwestjess, welcome to the Forum and I am certainly happy enough that you get the SRN's vision. Yep, only driving is involved. Throw the kids in the back seat and give 'em the cameras while you drive LOL. I say that to emphasize that you are correct in understanding that this really is a low keyed concept. No one goes or does anything until a report comes in. Could take years but if group members stay in touch with each other once in a while then when a call does come in there will be people who could be there to go and drive around the area. Anyone can do this. ANYONE. Stick a video cam on the dash and go. Spend an one hour in maybe THREE YEARS just driving up and down your one road. The other members will take the other roads. This is a follow up on only a visual sighting and no more needs to be done other than whichever person in the group is handling the witness interview. That interview will be conducted by whichever member of the group is the closest to the witness. The rest will hit the streets so to speak with cameras rolling. As far as you helping me in Maine? Don't have to. Think about starting an SRN in the Sou'west to do follow ups on your Mogollon Monster. And that's the other point about the SRN. Anyone who wants to can get one going wherever they are.Thank you for your input here, SWJ, and I'll catch you around the Forum
Caenus Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 1 hour ago, southwestjess said: Hiflier, I’m new here and I’ve been slowly making my way through this thread for a while. That your vision includes driving only I only just now understood, and, although not as exciting and sexy of an idea as going backpacking in the wilderness, it really makes it more accessible to those who are willing, but don’t have the skills for those kind of adventures. I’m not a researcher. I got interested in this subject as a young mom. I’m an older mom now and just don’t have the time or knowledge to spend lots of time camping. We camp ad a family but I don’t know how to use a map and compass. In another 10 years I’ll be out of this stage of life, and may have been able to read a library of books by then, but still won’t have the skills to be a “researcher” as I see the term used here. But what you’re describing I might actually be able to do. I’m in Arizona, so out of your area and no help to you really now or in the future. But props for moving forward with your vision. I’m in Arizona!
SWWASAS Posted October 16, 2018 BFF Patron Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Hiflier when I apply what I learned in my research area to methodology you intend to use, I can only think of one road where a crossing has been reported. That was in 1997. That sighting actually led me to the research area in the first place. Because of logging I think that road crossing may still be done but far less frequently than it was before the logging. The report was made by a paper delivery driver. He stopped along side the East Fork of the Lewis River about 1/2 mile from Molton Falls Park to look at his subscription list. He had the inside lights on looking at his subscription list, and making sure he had not missed someone or reminding him of the remaining stops to deliver the papers. . He looked up and peering down into his car was a huge BF standing right by the drivers side door. Needless to say it shook him up and he drove off. If I extrapolate the footprint finds I have made, I get several trail crossing of joint use trails in the research area. Using your methods on video camera equipped bicycle would multiply the chance of a trail crossing encounter several times over. So in this case, someone on a regular or electric bike using those trails may have good chance of a crossing encounter. The problem being that it took boots on the ground walking those trails to find the footprints laid down by the crossings. Without those only the road crossing sighting would have pointed to being in the area in the first place. And that sighting was over 7 miles away from the really active area. I have yet to find any footprint evidence of BF walking down a human road or trail. All of my finds where of them crossing. That may be because they avoid using human roads and trials or because human traffic obliterate evidence they do I simply do not know. Someone, I think it the BFRO, identified I-84 East of Troutdale having the most road crossings of any interstate Highway in the country. Mile post 27 is often mentioned. It is near a fish hatchery right on the Columbia and a canyon goes to the South up into the Gorge cliffs above. Someone in the Portland area, that just wants to drive might just drive I-84 after dark a few times back and forth through that area. Another road hot spot in Washington state is the road that comes from the East and goes into Ocean Shores WA. I think the highway number is 107. That road has frequent crossing sightings. So in every state there must be road crossing hot spots. The data base people would be the best ones to figure out where to drive waiting for more recent reports. Edited October 16, 2018 by SWWASAS
Guest southwestjess Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Caenus said: I’m in Arizona! Hey Caenus! Virtual high five! We’re recent transplants to Flag from western PA.
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