James33 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 First, a brief background. I've been fascinated with bigfoot since the 6th grade, as well as interested in all cryptids (Loch Ness, mothman, chupacabra, UFO sightings, abductions, etc). I've read and watched just about everything on the subject but have never seen or experienced anything at all. I'd love to believe that bigfoot is real but I have many reservations resulting in questions I'd like to get some feedback on. From a scientific perspective, a habitat has to have the ability to sustain the population of the animals that live there. Based on what I've read and heard, sightings of multiple bigfoot (families, herds, clans, etc) are super rare to non-existent. It's always a single animal sighted. There has to be a number for a viable population in an area - 200? 300? Let's break it down a little into separate questions. 1. How many animals would it take to produce a viable population, and over how many square miles would that population likely be scattered? For instance, juvenile and infant bigfoots would most likely stay with their mothers or family unit for protection for some time. You'd have to have "groups" of these animals at least for some time after a birth. They all can't be loners all the time. Also, in order to breed they'd have to located members of the opposite sex. Do they migrate to a specific spot or "home" location? Wander across a mate by luck and have a quickie behind a tree? Everyone always says they are extremely intelligent. Does anyone have any insight as to how they breed, raise their young, and if there is any family or clan type structure like in other apes? 2. What do they eat? They are HUGE and super muscular according to reports. Are they vegan? Omnivores? How many calories a day would they have to consume to live and grow? Seems like a lot based on how they look. Multiply that by the viable population for the habitat they are in and see if it's even possible the area could support such a creature. Some wild animals spend all of their time hunting and eating. Seems like all bigfoot does is bang on trees, holler, and occasionally walk by someone. If they are eating berries and the like, what do they do in winter? Are competing for meat with other predators? Does one hunt and bring it back for the others or is it every squatch for itself? 3. Where do they sleep and care for their young? I've seen the "nests" people have posted. Not very convincing of anything to me. Do they simply constantly walk around and sleep wherever each night or day? Do they migrate back and forth but never stay in one area? Maybe they have to in order to not starve. These questions are what lead me most to believe it simply isn't real. We aren't talking about a bug or a small mammal or reptile that's hidden in the rain forest. We are talking about a 8 ft creature that has to have a huge supply of water and food, some sort of social culture to allow it to breed and raise it's young, and be smart enough to avoid detection of it's existence. Seems like quite the stretch to me. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntster Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Me thinks you have little understanding of habitats, densities, and large omnivores that can be masters of adapting. For example, north of the Arctic Circle in Alaska, there is @ 1 brown bear per 300 sq. mi. On Kodiak Island, there are 210 bears in the same area. So how do those bears above th3e Arctic Circle survive? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twist Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Welcome James. These are all good questions to ask about BF. These are questions that anyone researching BF may come up with, regardless of their knowledge of habitats, densities and large omnivores. With regards to BF all of this information is unknown and to surmise BF is like other large omnivores could prove to be a mistake. For question #2 I point you to a very interesting thread started here by Norseman sometime ago in regards to BF needs for caloric intake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) Hi James, first of all, welcome to the BFF Almost every point you bring up has been discussed here so at least take some comfort in the fact that others have had your questions on their minds as well. Much of what is know is found in reports which is where a lot of the kinds of activities you have questions about can be found. There is little else in the way of knowledge one can glean simply from the standpoint of the types of sightings people say they experience today. Of course much can be researched about wildlife sustainability as there are sources on the web that have studied such matters. Things are different today too in how crowded and busy places are new and old, roads are new and old, and how much development has encroached both upon and within habitats. But wildlife still thrives and adapts to what we do and as we know more we build to allow animals to reconnect under and over our structures. You are certainly not the only one that has misgivings regarding Sasquatch's existence but if the truth of that existence is to become manifest then people just have to work at finding a way to nail the conundrum down both for themselves and everyone else. There is a great deal riding on that kind of proof and a little bit of thought will make that blatantly clear. The ramifications regarding of discovery are enormous both for this current time as well as any future activities in at the very least the natural resource industry. I have said enough for now but be certain that the picture in every area of our own existence would be seriously affected should that discovery ever be officially made. Figuring out HOW to make that discovery happen is the big name of the game. Without a doubt, that is exactly why I am here- to find a way to make it happen. Edited October 4, 2018 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cotter Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Well, about the sightings. There are reports of multiple BF being seeing at one time. So they're not always spotted solo. Regarding the habitat needed to support them. Good question and a ton of discussion has happened on that one. I feel that if they exist, there is a potential of them being nomadic in certain areas. If we look back at how humans lived in North America thousands of years ago, they moved to where the food was depending on the season. We see that in a lot of wildlife as well. Supporting population - good question again. Depending on who you talk to, population estimates vary from a few hundred to a BF behind every tree. For sustainable numbers, I would point you toward the wolverine. Extremely low population density and very large range. It can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted October 5, 2018 Admin Share Posted October 5, 2018 19 hours ago, James33 said: First, a brief background. I've been fascinated with bigfoot since the 6th grade, as well as interested in all cryptids (Loch Ness, mothman, chupacabra, UFO sightings, abductions, etc). I've read and watched just about everything on the subject but have never seen or experienced anything at all. I'd love to believe that bigfoot is real but I have many reservations resulting in questions I'd like to get some feedback on. From a scientific perspective, a habitat has to have the ability to sustain the population of the animals that live there. Based on what I've read and heard, sightings of multiple bigfoot (families, herds, clans, etc) are super rare to non-existent. It's always a single animal sighted. There has to be a number for a viable population in an area - 200? 300? Let's break it down a little into separate questions. 1. How many animals would it take to produce a viable population, and over how many square miles would that population likely be scattered? For instance, juvenile and infant bigfoots would most likely stay with their mothers or family unit for protection for some time. You'd have to have "groups" of these animals at least for some time after a birth. They all can't be loners all the time. Also, in order to breed they'd have to located members of the opposite sex. Do they migrate to a specific spot or "home" location? Wander across a mate by luck and have a quickie behind a tree? Everyone always says they are extremely intelligent. Does anyone have any insight as to how they breed, raise their young, and if there is any family or clan type structure like in other apes? 2. What do they eat? They are HUGE and super muscular according to reports. Are they vegan? Omnivores? How many calories a day would they have to consume to live and grow? Seems like a lot based on how they look. Multiply that by the viable population for the habitat they are in and see if it's even possible the area could support such a creature. Some wild animals spend all of their time hunting and eating. Seems like all bigfoot does is bang on trees, holler, and occasionally walk by someone. If they are eating berries and the like, what do they do in winter? Are competing for meat with other predators? Does one hunt and bring it back for the others or is it every squatch for itself? 3. Where do they sleep and care for their young? I've seen the "nests" people have posted. Not very convincing of anything to me. Do they simply constantly walk around and sleep wherever each night or day? Do they migrate back and forth but never stay in one area? Maybe they have to in order to not starve. These questions are what lead me most to believe it simply isn't real. We aren't talking about a bug or a small mammal or reptile that's hidden in the rain forest. We are talking about a 8 ft creature that has to have a huge supply of water and food, some sort of social culture to allow it to breed and raise it's young, and be smart enough to avoid detection of it's existence. Seems like quite the stretch to me. James 1) First of all? This is all conjecture. Nobody KNOWS anything. We can attempt to base our conjecture on what we do know about other large omnivores and great Apes. How many? As low as 50 or maybe less. https://www.conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/grizzly-bears-northeast/ How big of an area? Not big. Maybe for the US portion a 100 miles x 100 miles. Albeit steep dense mountainous terrain that includes the Salmo Priest wilderness. https://www.mountainproject.com/area/106986809/selkirk-mountains 2) Read my thread Twist posted the link too. Being an Ape? They are an omnivore. Being a bipedal Hominid? They could be much more adapted to hunting than a quadraped Ape. Its theorized that human ancestors began working with tools when they stood up and freed up their hands. 3) They would have to migratory. Without farming crops or having domesticated flocks they could not adopt permanent settlements. Not unlike primitive tribes of humans have done in the past. It does seem unlikely that in the Jet age, we could find ourselves not alone as the only bipedal Ape left on planet Earth. But there has been many archeological finds recently that point to the fact that there is alot we do not know about the human tree and even just within the last 10,000 years what was going on. https://www.livescience.com/29100-homo-floresiensis-hobbit-facts.html https://www.newscientist.com/article/2128834-homo-naledi-is-only-250000-years-old-heres-why-that-matters/ https://www.livescience.com/62036-modern-humans-interbred-neanderthals-denisovans.html https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/mastodons-americas-peopling-migrations-archaeology-science/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James33 Posted October 5, 2018 Author Share Posted October 5, 2018 Thanks for the replies! I'm reading through these and enjoying the discussion. James 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patterson-Gimlin Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) You bring up several great questions Thank you for an awesome thread You have pointed out great reasons as well as many why I am reasonably convinced that the creatures simply don't exist. Edited October 5, 2018 by Patterson-Gimlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Belpherion Posted October 6, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 6, 2018 Great questions James. I've been a wildlife biologist for 30 years. The one thing that can be stated with a very high degree of confidence is that nature takes perverse pleasure in making fools of human understanding. With that in mind, every species archetype requires a specific number of individuals for a healthy population. The more complex the organism, the greater number of individuals are needed to avoid species collapse at the genetic level. The smaller the gene pool, the harder long-term survival becomes. There are a large number of factors that have to be considered when calculating the minimum viable population for a species. In humans, the MVP can be as low as 15 individuals or as high as 4000 individuals depending on the variables used, conditions considered and potential morbidity and fecundity rates. We simply don't have enough information regarding bigfoot to make any realistic guesses as to whether the species is growing, stable or in collapse. What they eat will depend on what they are and that hasn't been answered yet. There is a lot of anecdotal information that indicates it's a largish mammal. Popular conjecture is that it is a primate. A strict vegetarian mammal requires a long gut to break down the plant materials consumed. In primates, this normally results in a pot belly physique. Lowland Gorillas are a good example. As protein intake increases, the body shape changes and gets slimmer in the middle. Most reports indicate bigfoot has a high protein diet based on general body description. Another indication of a high protein diet is intelligence. Bigfoot is reported to be very intelligent. If true, then protein is likely present in their diet. There are a number of primate studies that conclude that primates with diets containing 20-50% protein exhibit higher intelligence than strict vegetarian primates. Lowland Gorillas vs. Chimpanzees. You also have to consider brain size. Elephants are fairly intelligent for being herbivores, but their brains are 11-13 pounds compared to humans that have 3 pound brains. However, these musings are all guesses based on what "should" happen. It's inductive reasoning and suffers a few ad ignorantiam fallacies, but fun to consider. That brings us to how much a bigfoot eats. That depends on diet, metabolism, activity, and standard environmental conditions. That requires subjects for study and they seem to be difficult to locate reliably. Until someone figures out how to observe bigfoot for days at a time without them knowing, speculation will be the only information you will find. The same goes for where they sleep. It might be in caves, ground nests, up in trees, in abandoned mines, abandoned structures, or gullies. There is no consensus on this subject, but bigfoot seems to be as opportunistic about its sleeping arrangements. It if is as intelligent as the pundits believe, then it will take whatever the most advantageous accommodations are at the time. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBorn Posted October 6, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2018 Belpherion I think that you are right on point. They are way able to get close to us and watch us and see the things that we do. But we cannot even get close to them to even study them from afar. I have found the deer that they have killed and have taken pictures of them. I have seen pulled cattail root shoots out of swamps. I have smelled some weird sweet smells where people have said that might be birthing places. But Not been able to get close to where they might be. I can track them and still not find their birthing like deer or other creatures. People are always talking about their smell and still they can hide their scent. My assumption is they are doing well in numbers, they just know how to evade us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatFoot Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Smelled sweet birthing places? Ok. How do you know/think this? Ps- I sound like a denier, but I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 In order to attain the sizes observed protein would have to be a part of their diet. If they exist they have been a part of the ecosystem and habitats they live in for 10's of thousands of years. They didn't just show up and displace some other large mammal, they have lived among them. As far as population densities. Considering that they have been witnessed all over North America they would have to have viable populations not only in localized areas like the PNW but elsewhere as well. I have tried to get forensic science to look at this evidence. But other than verbal interest I haven't had any takers. So all I have to work with is my own comparative research. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBorn Posted October 8, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 1:16 PM, NatFoot said: Smelled sweet birthing places? Ok. How do you know/think this? Ps- I sound like a denier, but I'm not. Natfoot I was not going to respond to ya but have decided to. I am going on assumption and as well as others who have responded to me when I have reported about this smell. I have never smelt this smell before in these areas and it is such a weird smell that it is hard to explain. You can just tell a difference in this smell and the area where this smell came from is very thick. Not something where you can just walk right into it since it is so thick. It is very spike like in that area and not some thing that I would not even want to crawl into. All I can say is that the smell did make me feel at ease. So yes I felt as though that it could been a place like where a baby might be. I can say that I have hunted close to this area and did have large trees fallen or maybe even pushed over where when there was no wind at the time of the incident. Scare tactics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatFoot Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Interesting. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 As mentioned, it's mostly conjecture...but if I had to form a reasonable hypothesis... Nomadic , to take advantage of seasonal food sources / habitat and avoid detection by leaving concentrated sign behind. Not frequenting an area would make it harder to find , imo. omnivorous to increase feeding opportunities. probably not near as densely populated as some would have us believe...unless in a fairly remote , rugged wilderness area with little to no human interference. Smart & stealthy enough to sneak around us ... usually. I'd be more skeptical of much of the evidence and stories offered up than whether or not it could exist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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