My Perspective and questions for you all

[MIB]

^^^^ I do not really know.     I would consider what Ketchum reported ... that she was doing a double-blind test with several labs, none of which knew of the others, and none of which knew the nature of the samples.   Once one found out they became quite irate and did not want to be cited as a source.   This suggests something but it is hard to know if that was merely not wanting their perceived reputation tainted by association with a professionally sketchy subject or if it was because they had inadvertently violated some standing order.   I see no way to be sure of which it is so it comes down to personal beliefs, not to something I have a way to substantiate.    I would guess that by this point, today, if there is a conspiracy, which I doubt, then all capable labs have been compromised.   I simply can't see a conspiracy on the scale necessary being kept secret.

 

Thanks for finding and sharing Henner Fahrenbach's info.    Very relevant.   His credentials are important to understanding the significance of his work.   He was a trained zoologist and "worked for thirty years as Chairman of the Laboratory of Electron Microscopy at the Oregon Regional Primate Center in Beaverton, Oregon."   In his day, there was likely no human alive more qualified to examine primate hair and determine species.

 

So this comes back to my earlier comments to James33 ... it is necessary to know the history to properly assess the evidence and engage in a discussion in a meaningful way.   You need to know the time, the technology, the qualifications of the experts involved .. etc.    THEN you have the background necessary to assess how Occam's Razor is properly applied.   Otherwise, you're playing scoftic dismissing evidence without ever truly examining it.

 

MIB

 

PS: a personal historical side note .. Henner Fahrenback was the BFRO investigator who did the followup interviews regarding my bigfoot report.   He was also a friend of my research partner.    The BF world was much smaller then and pretty near everyone knew pretty near everyone.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by MIB

[norseman]

12 hours ago, James33 said:

Whole new race of humans?  That's beyond a stretch, IMO.  You are assuming it's DNA is all human. What evidence do you have? 

 

I do not think it is human. Or at least our understanding of what it is to be human (human = Homo Sapien). Homo Erectus with a 800cc brain case was carefully flaking out hand axes 2 million years ago. We do not seem to find Bigfoot quarries in which we find evidence of this taking place now. So while it may throw rocks or hit things over the head with sticks. Its not flaking rocks like obsidian or flint into stone tools. Which is a major demarckation line between earlier bipedal human ancestors and the genus Homo.

 

Could it be some distant cousin like Australopithecus afarensis? Sure. Its bipedal so its probably somewhere in our family tree. And there is a small possibility it could have arose from the Asian Ape line like Gigantopethicus. Which would mean bipedalism would have evolved twice instead of once in the great Ape family. Its a mystery for sure.

 

I flatly reject theories like Ketchum that its a human hybrid, or that its a giant race of Indians.

 

I believe the PGF is real....and that is NOT a human female walking across the screen. But it is a bipedal. So how closely it is related to us? Is only going to be answered by a body on a slab or a bona fide DNA sample. 

[Twist]

^^^ Agreed Norse.  There are more things that point to non-human than human in my opinion.  Going the route of human based on hand/thumb or foot adaption is jumping to conclusions.  Means of adapting limbs has more to do with environment and effectiveness than it does geneology.   

[hiflier]

I am just a little more than envious that you knew him, MIB  And yes, agreed he was the expert of the day, expert and enough of a scientist to know when to pull in another expert on the hair samples. It shows more emphasis on science and truth than ego. Quite a guy.

 

10 minutes ago, MIB said:

I would consider what Ketchum reported ... that she was doing a double-blind test with several labs, none of which knew of the others, and none of which knew the nature of the samples.   Once one found out they became quite irate and did not want to be cited as a source.   This suggests something but it is hard to know if that was merely not wanting their perceived reputation tainted by association with a professionally sketchy subject or if it was because they had inadvertently violated some standing order.  I see no way to be sure of which it is so it comes down to personal beliefs, not to something I have a way to substantiate.    I would guess that by this point, today, if there is a conspiracy, which I doubt, then all capable labs have been compromised.   I simply can't see a conspiracy on the scale necessary being kept secret. .

 

Well we all know what happened to Dr. Ketchum's double-blind study. 12 independent labs? Over a hundred samples? The wolves came out of he woodwork and chewed her up and chewed her findings to smithereens. But I agree on the conspiracy aspect. I have my suspicions of course and have given my views about such things but it may come down more to policy than conspiracy. If that is the case it would be much earlier to generate a smear campaign against one lab (or two) to hold up as an example of what can happen if someone bucks the system. The other lab owners will probably get the message and steer clear of anything Bigfoot after that.

 

But here's the thing about that, The labs that did the testing were FULL of qualified people who passed their Lab 101's They KNEW everything about how to handle samples Some of the credentials and level of equipment and expertise was way over what a normal genetics project would require. All of the big guns came out to produce those results. And what WERE those results?? Same as Dr. W.  Henner Fahrebach's results which he got using relatively inferior equipment by a decade compared to what was available to Ketchum's 12 labs. But the results from both projects came back the same: Homo. I just have to ask......who would not want the public to know that? Is Dr. Todd Disotell headed for the same trap? He must know that the same wolves are out there and I am sure they are watching. The good doctor has to know they are watching.

 

Ketchum was new to Bigfootery and didn't know how to describe what the DNA was telling her. Dr. Disotell is a lot more experienced and knowledgeable with an office full of Bigfoot books and a TV show. He's been at this for a long time. Ketchum has odd personal beliefs. Disotell as far as I know does not. BUT....BUT the science is the science and the samples tested are real samples. The techniques for how to handle those samples were, and are, universal. Every lab and every technician in a lab, whether a chief scientist or underling KNWS how to properly handle a sample. One is not going to get fifty people in 12 labs all make the same errors.

 

16 minutes ago, norseman said:

Could it be some distant cousin like Australopithecus afarensis? Sure. Its bipedal so its probably somewhere in our family tree. And there is a small possibility it could have arose from the Asian Ape line like Gigantopethicus. Which would mean bipedalism would have evolved twice instead of once in the great Ape family. Its a mystery for sure.

 

I flatly reject theories like Ketchum that its a human hybrid, or that its a giant race of Indians.

 

Agreed. She should have never stated those things publicly without being corroborated first privately. She truly did not understand the Bigfoot crowd. She was a Newbie who didn't get it.

 

11 minutes ago, Twist said:

Means of adapting limbs has more to do with environment and effectiveness than it does geneology.

 

Again I agree, But at what point do those limb adaptations become Homo as opposed to Pan or Pongo? Is it brain and tools only?There are mpeople that by themselves do not possess the skills or brainpower to craft or use tools because of some defect in thinking. Are they still Homo? Genetically, at least, they are. 

[NatFoot]

Why does it matter if she understood the Bigfoot crowd? You wanted a scientist and you got one (whether or not she is bonkers or not).

 

Understanding this crowd should have nothing to do with anything, IMO.

[MIB]

Ketchum was not that much of a noob.    Hers was the lab that Paulides hinted at doing his DNA work when he was writing his bigfoot books from information from the reservations in Northern California.   That's where her involvement started.    A good 5 years before her study.    She was also connected with a number of "name" individuals in the bigfoot field.   

 

I have real doubts about all of her reported findings.   Remember Haskell Hart's analysis of the information she released.   He posted that here.    Worth a second look back in the archives.

 

MIB

[hiflier]

I don't think you understood what I was getting at. She stated her personal beliefs which are not scientific. They were her beliefs. So the public viewed her not as much a scientist but more of a fringe kind of weirdo who lacked objectivity. I think she allowed her personal spiritual beliefs to taint her summaries of what the data was showing. And it all became fodder for those who were hell bent on destroying any serious interest in the data. The result was that the data also became something to tear apart. It got played up and eroded her credibility in spite of the science that the 12 labs produced. That is what I was getting at.

 

If someone is going to conduct DNA testing on Sasquatch then they simply cannot give anyone a handle to grab in order to shoot down the study or the results should they come back the same; as in come back as Human. The powerful argument that the samples were contaminated will then follow and unless the person presenting the study looks to be a scientist of sound mind those powerful arguments will become strong should a persons personal beliefs be allowed to enter the picture. Ketchum didn't understand that and it killed the study under the weight of 'crackpot' theories on what the data was showing.

 

But this isn't about Dr. Ketchum, this is about ANY scientist who comes up with Sasquatch samples that come back Human. Sasquatch comes back Homo. So how much of it DNA is Human? We share 96% of our DNA is the same as Chimpanzees. And yet they are not Human. How much of our DNA does Sasquatch have? 97%? 98%? 99%? Is there a chromosomal difference like between Humans and the Great Apes where the Great Apes have 24 pairs of chromosome compared to our 23 pairs? Is that what made Australopithecus afarensis Homo? Its chromosome count?

  

22 minutes ago, MIB said:

Remember Haskell Hart's analysis of the information she released.   He posted that here.    Worth a second look back in the archives

 

I will revisit that, thanks. I could use a refresher as it has been a couple of years  

Edited November 7, 2018 by hiflier

[MIB]

If it test anywhere nearer Homo  than Pan it would almost certainly have 23 chromosome pairs.   Remember that our 23 pairs include 2 that are fused, otherwise structurally we're a close match with chimps' 24.   Then, of course, we have to ponder the differences in nuclear DNA vs the differences in mitochondrial DNA ... those early tests almost certainly began with mito since that is what is used for species identification and each cell has about 100x as much mito as nuclear making it much easier to test.  

 

Regarding Ketchum .. the data she did release is nowhere near of sufficient quantity to be what she claimed it was nor to show what she claimed it showed.    To show comparison, compare the Mona Lisa and a simple black squiggle on white paper.   What Ketchum told us she gave us was the Mona Lisa, what she actually presented us with is the squiggle.     Should have been terabytes, not a few typed pages.

[bipedalist]

If you go back to BF 1.0 there was a sad sack named Tom Burnette that got caught up with Ketchum and DNA.  He was the one who claimed he had acquired a baby BF skull which turned out to be a deer cranium which had been sawed in half axially.  She refused to return his sample for over one year.  This was the same time her first lab crumbled under unknown financial pressures as best I could determine.  She did not impress as one who could be trusted and in that I am quite sure.  Call her noobless if you care, doesn't ring true whatever you call her.  In retrospect foresight was 20/20 on this one.  Not vouching for the man that had to threaten legal action to get his half deer skull back either.  He was quite sure he had something special. 

[norseman]

25 minutes ago, MIB said:

If it test anywhere nearer Homo  than Pan it would almost certainly have 23 chromosome pairs.   Remember that our 23 pairs include 2 that are fused, otherwise structurally we're a close match with chimps' 24.   Then, of course, we have to ponder the differences in nuclear DNA vs the differences in mitochondrial DNA ... those early tests almost certainly began with mito since that is what is used for species identification and each cell has about 100x as much mito as nuclear making it much easier to test.  

 

Regarding Ketchum .. the data she did release is nowhere near of sufficient quantity to be what she claimed it was nor to show what she claimed it showed.    To show comparison, compare the Mona Lisa and a simple black squiggle on white paper.   What Ketchum told us she gave us was the Mona Lisa, what she actually presented us with is the squiggle.     Should have been terabytes, not a few typed pages.

 

Not only was it a squiggle and not an entire genome? But it was a gaggle of unrelated species..... basically man-bear-pig. Obviously contamination was a problem with her samples that she absolutely denies. 

 

Obviously her work did nothing to convince science something was truly out there....

 

And then she opened her mouth and started talking about forest people, human hybrids and angels and all sorts of nonsense. Thats when the scientificness part of her study left the rails.....never to be seen again. I think she has moved on to “werewolves” now......

[hiflier]

This isn't about Ketchum. Its about ANY lab that says Sasquatch samples, hair or otherwise, or even just hair morphology will come under attack. PhD's get marginalized, scientists get labeled. There is pressure out there. It isn't about Ketchum. Its about the pattern. I noticed that the indiegogo account for raising funding tor the e-DNA testing of the nest sampled has been closed. The goal was $7,500. They raised a little over $5,000. It will be enough to run 5 e-DNA tests. Who wants to bet that the tests get tossed for contamination when they come back Human? Who wants to bet that the accusations will be that the reason the samples came back Human is because of shoddy handling and that the samples were improperly prepared? I am ready for that. Of anyone, Dr. Disotell should be keenly aware that there is a good chance that the pattern of the past will rear its ugly head once more.

 

12 minutes ago, norseman said:

Obviously contamination was a problem with her samples that she absolutely denies.

 

Why keep denying something so scientifically obvious then?

Edited November 7, 2018 by hiflier

[Doug]

 The Occam's Razor that I learned is that "ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the simplest answer tends to be the correct one".

 

You have bear hair that tests bear time and time again. Rabbit that tests rabbit time and time again. Neanderthal that tests Neanderthal time and time again. Sasquatch that tests human time and time again. So, all things being equal, ( bear tests bear, rabbit rabbit, Neanderthal Neanderthal, and Sasquatch human) the simplest answer is; bear tests bear because it IS bear, Rabbit because it IS rabbit, Neanderthal because it IS Neanderthal and Sasquatch because, well, it is what it is and the DNA tells us what it is. It's up to us to decide for ourselves if we are willing to accept the results for what they are or ignore the results and label it something other than what the results tell us. 

 

Occam's razor would suggest that if it looks fairly human, walks fairly human and test human, then it must be fairly human. Apes are not fairly human. The are similar in some respects, but vastly different in others. And time and time again when DNA tested, they test ape. Occam's razor would indicate that apes, then, are apes, not human. If Sasquatch tested ape time and time again would you accept that it is an ape or would you yell contamination?

[norseman]

25 minutes ago, hiflier said:

This isn't about Ketchum. Its about ANY lab that says Sasquatch samples, hair or otherwise, or even just hair morphology will come under attack. PhD's get marginalized, scientists get labeled. There is pressure out there. It isn't about Ketchum. Its about the pattern. I noticed that the indiegogo account for raising funding tor the e-DNA testing of the nest sampled has been closed. The goal was $7,500. They raised a little over $5,000. It will be enough to run 5 e-DNA tests. Who wants to bet that the tests get tossed for contamination when they come back Human? Who wants to bet that the accusations will be that the reason the samples came back Human is because of shoddy handling and that the samples were improperly prepared? I am ready for that. Of anyone, Dr. Disotell should be keenly aware that there is a good chance that the pattern of the past will rear its ugly head once more.

 

 

Why keep denying something so scientifically obvious then?

 

Why start talking about Angels breeding human women and start running DNA tests for Werewolves?

 

 

[hiflier]

28 minutes ago, norseman said:

Why start talking about Angels breeding human women and start running DNA tests for Werewolves?

 

Good grief, apples and oranges. Science vs. Woo. DNA letters printed out on a page isn't woo. She didn't run the tests. 12 other labs did. But if it is that important to you to make this about Ketchum's woo side then be my guest. Paint her worse and worse? Go for it. I have already said she shouldn't have let her beliefs go public. But rather than just agree with that, you would rather smear her image a little more? Have at it.  Go ahead, keep her pinned down while she isn't here to defend herself.

 

I am saying it's the principal here that matters. Do you really think anyone who tests a supposed Sasquatch sample and has it come back Human is going to get off unscathed? Nope they are not. That's the point. Are you even listening?

[NatFoot]

2 minutes ago, hiflier said:

 

Good grief, apples and oranges. Science vs. Woo. DNA letters printed out on a page isn't woo. She didn't run the tests. 12 other labs did. But if it is that important to you to make this about Ketchum's woo side then be my guest. Paint her worse and worse? Go for it. I have already said she shouldn't have let her beliefs go public. But rather than just agree with that, you would rather smear her image a little more? Have at it.  Go ahead, keep her pinned down while she isn't here to defend herself.

 

I am saying it's the principal here that matters. Do you really think anyone who tests a supposed Sasquatch sample and has it come back Human is going to get off unscathed? Nope they are not. That's the point. Are you even listening?

You are wrong. You wanted a scientist, you got one.

 

If she isn't batshit crazy...only the government cover-up explanation plays here.

 

Unless I'm missing something obvious (it's possible).